Hey, Scott. We're putting together an end of decade feature and I wanted to see if you'd be willing to do a writeup on the top 10 matches of the decade. Here's the list. You might be surprised - the majority's WWE stuff. Only 1 TNA match and 2 ROH. I've included the vote counts, too.
1 – tie) Undertaker/HBK – WM 25 – WWE 24
1 – tie) Styles/Daniels/Joe – 9/11/05 – TNA 24
3) HHH/Cactus – Royal Rumble 00 – WWE 22
4) HHH/HBK/Benoit – WM 20 – WWE 20
5) Edge/Christian/Hardys/Dudleys – Sslam 00 – WWE 14
6) HHH/Austin – No Way Out 01 – WWE 13
7) Angle/Benoit – RR 2003 – WWE 11
Kenta vs. Danielson – 9/15/06 – ROH 10
9 – tie) Eddie/Lesnar – No Way Out 04 – WWE 09
9 – tie) Joe/Punk – 6/12/04 – ROH 09
9 – tie) HBK/Angle – WM21 – WWE 09
Let me know what you think. Thanks again!
Haven't seen Joe v. Punk in fact, but I would say that Joe v. Kobashi deserves to be in the list because it's so great that it comes to your house and kicks you in the nuts and you're like "Holy shit, you just kicked me in the nuts but I'll watch you again anyway because you kick so much ass." And then you sit down with it and watch it again, which is quite the metaphysical feat.
Anyway, I digress.
Undertaker/HBK is ridiculously high. Sorry, but a year of perspective isn't enough to declare it the best match of the decade yet. My vote would go to HHH v. Cactus or HHH/HBK/Benoit. Brock v. Eddie isn't even in the same universe as most of the rest of the top 10. Plus I think the HBK-Angle rematch from Vengeance 2005 was ***** and thus better than the original WM match.
This should produce some entertaining debate...
Austin-Rock: WrestleMania 17
The first thing I thought when I looked at that list was the fact that Austin/Rock was robbed.
Mine would have to be as follows:
1. HHH vs. Cactus Jack – No Way Out 2000
2. Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Benoit vs. HHH – WrestleMania 20
3. HHH vs. Steve Austin – No Way Out 2001
4. HHH vs. Cactus Jack – Royal Rumble 2000
5. 2004 Royal Rumble
6. TLC Match – WrestleMania 17
7. Edge & Rey Mysterio vs. Kurt Angle & Chris Benoit – No Mercy 2002
8. TLC Match – SummerSlam 2000
9. Steve Austin vs. The Rock – WrestleMania 17
10. Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit – Royal Rumble 2003
Of course my list is exclusive of WWE matches and nothing past 2005.
I’m actually doing the top 10 news stories of the decade for Pulse. But I’m considering going rogue because the list quite frankly sucks.
The #5 *professional wrestling* news story, as voted on by the staff of Pulse, was Brock Lesnar winning the *UFC* championship.
For real.
And every other story is about death, dying, drugs, or wellness. Fuck it. I’m going to go rogue and come up with a better list.
Unfortunately, Benoit’s death has to be #1, and there isn’t even a close second.
And Eddie Guerrero’s death is probably #3, right behind maybe WCW going out of business.
Well since Scott could spoil the top match list, here’s the top News List that I’m supposed to write up on.
1) Benoit Double Murder 59
The Decade’s Other Wrestling Deaths 15
2) WCW collapse and WWE buyout 54
3) WWF becomes WWE 31
4) Founding of TNA 30
5) Brock Lesnar becomes UFC champion 20
6) Wellness Policy Instituted 18
7) Death of Eddie Guerrero 17
9 – tie) Retirement of Steve Austin 11
9 – tie)WWE goes PG 11
And the first runner up was Hulk Hogan signs with TNA. The fucking thing hasn’t even started yet and it got more votes then some stuff that really HAS happened and had major impact on the industry.
So basically #1, #6, #7, and #8 are all related to the seedy side of wrestling. I don’t want to spend ten days writing about that (one entry every day.)
I wanted to lump ALL deaths, including Chris Benoit’s, into the #1 catagory and call it a “Decade of Tragedy.” I wouldn’t want do Eddie’s seperately. I know smarks consider him the patron saint of wrestling. I don’t. I miss his matches and stuff, but he was just another death, one who happened to be on the roster at the time. I would also eliminate the wellness policy discussion and lump it in. It’s all connected. It’s all the same story. Chris Benoit’s was just the cherry on top.
This is the list I purposed. Not the actual list I used as my vote, but I thought this one made more sense.
#1 All wrestling deaths, including Chris Benoit, Guerrero, Misawa, and the Wellness Fallout
#2 WWE buys WCW, later ECW and various tape liberaries (DVD fallout, 24/7, etc)
#3 TNA created, evolves, TV deals, etc (other stuff like Ring of Honor)
#4 WWF changes name to WWE (various other changes the company went through in the decade)
#5 The Rock & Steve Austin leave WWE (various other comings and going, talent exchanges, etc)
#6 The Attitude Era ends, Wrestling Popularity Declines
#7 Triple H marries Stephanie McMahon (later Shane McMahon and Linda McMahon leave WWE, various changes to WWE production style)
#8 Attempts at going Mainstream (WWE Films, Hogan Knows Best, Tough Enough, Celebrity Wrestling, Etc)
#9 WWE Splits into two brands, then three (brings back ECW included, various drafts)
#10 The XFL
That list seems like it would be more entertaining to me. What fun is it to show up every day at Pulse and be like “Moment #blah… remember when so and so died? Read more!”
I would actually like to hear everyone’s thoughts on this. Especially Scott’s.
To be honest, I think you could save yourself a day and absorb the Wellness Policy into Eddie’s death since they directly correlate to one another, as x caused y. But then you’d have to throw out a lot of peoples’ votes. But nobody should have a huge problem with that, since the Eddie story immediately follows the Wellness story in vote totals. Then you could free up another slot at the end for the next highest vote-getter.
That said, I like your personal list except for #6, as it seems that you could say “Boom period ends, wrestling faces popularity decline” of just about any decade. Okay, maybe not the 80s, since they saw a rise from stagnancy into a perpetual boom, with the decline not coming until the 90s. But the fact that the boom ended isn’t really a story. The bigger story is “WWF screws up the biggest angle in history (the Invasion), bringing about the death of the Attitude Era/Boom period.”
That is, if you believe that the Invasion angle killed the boom period.
OK, well I’m taking suggesting for you guys since I’m chucking the official Pulse list. This stuff should have been decided by the readers anyway.
I like that I work for Pulse but I strongly disagree with most the writers on all the end of decade stuff. End of decade lists or Top XXXX ever lists never will satisfy everyone but it should be based on the reader feedback.
Plus I really want to have FUN writing the list, and I can’t do that if half the list is devoted to deaths and drugs.
“That said, I like your personal list except for #6, as it seems that you could say “Boom period ends, wrestling faces popularity decline” of just about any decade”
That is true but it’s an interesting story on how it got there. I think I could possibly drop it lower on the list. I would discuss the invasion of course, as it’s a key part of what went wrong.
Again, I want this opened up to debate among you guys. Any suggestions.
“discuss the invasion of course, as it’s a key part of what went wrong.”
Not to jerk the proverbial circle, but I think an entire article on why the boom ended written in your style alone would make for outstanding reading.
And I definitely hear ya on the wanting to have fun while doing the list. Isn’t that why Scott doesn’t watch the current product anymore? There’s no point in writing about something you love if the topic you’re tasked with writing about is going to kill your love for it.
Strangely enough, that crazy tag team tournament we finished about a week ago was the most fun I’ve had being on this site, and nevermind the fact that a good number of the entrants were dead.
But yeah, I think another big story isn’t necessarily the founding of TNA, but their TV deal with Spike. That was, to me, the point where I figured TNA would be around for the long haul, and not this temporary company that was just pretending to try and be the number 2 promotion. Until then, I just figure TNA would go the way of WWA (which also had Jarrett as their champion). The Spike deal solidified a more visible presence, and it also coincided with arguably their strongest period as a product.
Also, and I know this is an absolutely asinine suggestion, but what about the Hardy/Lita/Edge triangle? I think that angle sort of established (at least to Vince, who’d seemingly been holding out for the first half of the decade) the effect the internet community could have on the product. I mean, even though they screwed the pooch on the angle itself, you have to at least credit part of Matt Hardy’s rehiring to the “You screwed Matt!” chants. Granted, the internet is also what got him fired, but the power of the internet in spreading the story to the fanbase not only made someone who wasn’t even employed into one of the top babyfaces, but it also MADE one of the best heels of the decade in Edge.
You know, I’m not entirely convinced the whole Matt getting fired thing wasn’t a work. It just all played out too perfectly for Edge in the situation. It’s what led to him getting over enough to be the world champion.
Coming and going I’m not sure about. I don’t think Kurt Angle going to TNA was as big a deal. It certainly didn’t move their numbers at all.
I don’t know–if you’re going to disqualify Brock Lesnar winning the UFC Title as having nothing to do with wrestling then how can you justify having the XFL in your list? Unless you’re going to lump it in with all WWE’s attempts to diversify this past decade such as WWE New York/The World, WWE Films, and anything else they tried which I’m forgetting. Although you have WWE Films including in “going mainstream” so I guess that’s my idea out the window.
Well the XFL was a direct extension of the WWE…
I guess you’re right though, so I’ll place the XFL into the Main Stream article and that frees up room for a new #10.
With Brock and the UFC, here’s how I look at it.
-Brock Lesnar was only in the WWE for two years. He’s been out of the company for five and a half years already (jesus time flies).
-Ultimate Fighting is NOT wrestling and his winning the UFC belt had no effect on the wrestling industry.
BUT… I had planned on discussing UFC and MMA in general in #3 (which is called “In with the New”… can you guess what #2 is called?) which discusses mostly TNA but some Ring of Honor in it. UFC is taking a big chunk of WWE’s audience and it will be discussed.
And Brock had a spot in #5 as well, which was mostly going to talk about the loss of Rock and Steve Austin, but I had also planned to talk about Bret Hart’s retirement, Ric Flair’s kinda sorta retirement, and other major hirings and firings by the WWE and TNA.
We need a new #10. Eric Bischoff in WWE? As far as shocking happenings go, that ranks up there.
How about The Rock leaving for Hollywood…and actually kinda making it?
He’s the only wrestler I can think of making it to Hollywood and being totally legitimate to the point where people don’t even think of him as a wrestler anymore. Couldn’t say that about Hulk. Hell, mainstream Hollywood didn’t seem to want any part of the guy, as he only seemed to get roles in straight-to-DVD movies or flicks trotted out for the big screen as if they should have been straight-to-DVD (like that Three Ninjas movie he was in).
Meanwhile, The Rock is now Dwayne Johnson and has been in a slew of big pictures (The Game Plan, Get Smart, The Scorpion King, Race To Witch Mountain, Be Cool, Walking Tall, Gridiron Gang), most of which outweigh the amount of critical or commercial flops he’s been in (Southland Tales, Doom, The Rundown – which I love if for no other reason than Christopher Walken’s Tooth Fairy speech…ironic, since Rock is about to star in a movie by the same title).
Or how about Kurt to TNA?
Or the resurrection of ECW?
I can’t think of anything else that hasn’t either already been mentioned or wound up being turbo-lame in retrospect (i.e., the two above).
The Rock and Steve Austin leaving will be the primary stuff of #5, with other comings and goings included in it. And the Rock’s mainstream stuff will be talked about in the part on WWE attempts at mainstream (all of which have failed epicly).
ECW will be covered in the brand split.
Hey, Charlie, your list is much better, and if you are the one that is responsible for it being published, then you should run with your list.
It’s a big project, so be careful when you choose which ones to “lump” together. I think your original list is fine enough—but the list they gave to you DOES feature too many stories about death. It just looks like sensationalism to have 3 or 4 of the top 10 be about that.
Take control!
I like this list. It would be better than every other day, “Hey another dead guy!”
I would say the Brock Lesnar thing should be in the top ten, because it illustrates how his popularity and the UFC’s popularity is hurting Vince, so maybe lump XFL in with the rest of the “mainstream” stuff. Maybe. I don’t know? I’m tired. I like your list Charlie. Make it happen.
It’s not a bad list, but I think it could be tweaked.
#2 really confuses two different things. The real #2 is clearly WCW and ECW go bust and WWE becomes a near monopoly in the US. Buying the tape libraries, together with the start of WWE 24 (or whatever its called) and the rise of the DVD, probably deserve an entry in their own right as they have changed the viewing habits of a lot of fans and become a huge revenue stream.
I’m not sure the name change is that important, I would stick with the original list here and say that WWE going PG is what matters and the original list had it in about the right place (at the bottom).
#7 is really important with the rise of Steph of Head of Creative and the import of all these second rate Hollywood hacks in place of traditional wrestling booking.
I would replace #10 (XFL) with the rise of UFC and the collapse in WWE PPV buy rates. I think the UFC is close to becoming what wrestling was at the peak of the attitude era, counter-culture which goes mainstream and makes a shed load of cash. Vince and say what he likes but people only have limited $ and UFC is getting them rather than wrestling.
Well to clarify, once you say “WWE buys WCW” where do you go from there? I really wanted to make it about what the WWE did with what it bought. I can’t just say “They had an invasion and it sucked.”
The purchase of WCW by WWE lead directly to the creation of WWE’s Home Video department as it exist today. It’s where the WWE benefited the most from the purchase. Did you know that the Ultimate Ric Flair Collection made over four times as much money as the actual price the WWE paid for WCW by itself? A DVD that had eight matches paid for WCW with only a quarter of it’s profits. That’s the story to me.
Basically it will be as follows.
“WWE buys WCW. They do terrible using it for wrestling angles… twice (don’t forget the nWo Invasion of ‘02), but make everything back with the home video division. If the WWE learned nothing else it’s that tape libraries = profit. With nobody left to outbid them, WWE starts collecting other collections, including ECW’s. Today WCW exists being rang up at the counter for 19.99 a pop and is more profitable now like that then it ever was when it was alive.”
But longer and funnier. If you’ve read my Way Too Long Reviews you should know what to expect from these pieces, which will run for 10 days at the end of December. I’ve still got Hogan’s set and Bragging Rights to do for now.
I started a new reply here as the screen was getting too narrow !
In answer to your question about where do you go to after saying WCW and ECW go bust, they do the invasion angle, it sucks, the end… I think the monopoly has had three major effects.
(1) its reduced wrestlers’ negotiating power and made it harder for them to reinvent themselves in a new environment once they had gone stale. I don’t see anyway the character refresh that Jericho had came to the WWE could happen now.
(2) WCW and ECW promoted different wrestling styles to the WWE and without them cruiser weights have been largely forgotten and even hardcore wrestling has been sanitised. TNA had to chance to change this with tag wrestling, the X-division and women’s wrestling and have largely blown all three and with them any chance of becoming an alternative – at least in the creative sense. Even RoH is now having to drastically tone down its unique style due to the injury rate it extracts when that is all the wrestlers do.
(3) It really led to the demise of anyone else to learn the trade apart from WWE developmental. How bad the current crisis is in terms of bring new talent through is being hidden at the moment as we still have Punk and a few others who learnt the ropes elsewhere, but in a couple of years the WWE will be really screwed.
1. I’d say Taker/Michaels DOES deserve to be #1, simply because it was one of the greatest matches I’ve EVER seen. Don’t know why I need to wait 5 years to make that determination.
2. Personally, I never got the Joe/Daniels/AJ match. It was a great match, but I never got why it was a classic. And I NEVER understood how Dave could give that match *****, and not Taker/Michaels or Benoit/Angle or Benoit/Hunter/Michaels.
3. I also never really got the love of Joe/Kobashi, but I’m not all that familiar with Kobashi, so that may have just been me not “getting it.”
I know it’s a bit early to be declaring HBK/Taker Match of the Decade, but didn’t people do the same thing with Flair/Steamboat in 89?
I don’t think a year’s worth of perspective is suddenly going to unlock some special insight into how worthy the match is of its acclaim. I mean, usually the criteria for retrospective are what they did with the angle afterwards and what impact it had on the business. But I’m pretty sure that in five years, people are probably going to wonder why we didn’t name HBK/Taker MOTD, and then the whole “well, we didn’t have enough time for retrospective” argument isn’t really going to look all that reasonable.
To me, a great match is a great match. Nine months of perspective isn’t really going to change that, especially if I’ve had eight years of matches that I DO have perspective on, and I still prefer the more recent one.
Anyway, I don’t want this to sound like I’m trying to start an argument. Truthfully, I think Benoit/Angle from the 2003 Rumble is the MOTD, but I just hate the argument that you can’t make a judgment without at least a year of retrospect.
But whatever anyone believes is the MOTD is their opinion, and I’ll never criticize someone’s own personal opinion on what they think a good match is, or why.
There are stuff I like personally that would be on my PERSONAL list, but they likely wouldn’t belong on a definitive list.
My personal favorite match of the decade was Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H from SUmmerslam 2002. God I loved that match. I’m such a Shawn Michaels fan and I had NO expectations going in. I figured he was crippled. And then they just simply bust out all the stops. Scott only went **** on it. I went all the way. It was just so perfect. A great way to announce “I’M BACK!”
From a technical standpoint, for me it’s close between the Wrestlemania 20 main event or the 2004 Royal Rumble match. The Rumble match told a better story… maybe the best story every told over the course of an hour in a wrestling ring. The Triple Threat at Wrestlemania was faster paced and more emotional. Sadly, the appeal of both matches is lost these days.
But, no biases and total loss of emotional attachement… I think I would go with the 2004 Royal Rumble match as the match of the decade. It was truly epic storytelling.
It’s funny that you start out that post mentioning HBK/HHH at Summerslam 2002 and close it by mentioning the 2004 Royal Rumble match, since HHH/HBK wrestled at that event and it really wasn’t very good, which leads me into my theory on HHH/HBK:
They have chemistry with one another as long as they’re not actually trying.
I’m convinced that HHH/HBK was booked as the Raw title match for the Rumble based on the strength of their Dec. 2003 Raw main event. And again, there I felt like they were just having fun and going through the motions (but in a good way. As in “not thinking about it and just doing it”). And that’s how I felt about the Summerslam 2002 match. And it’s also how I felt about the triple threat series with Benoit, as it felt like both HHH and HBK made the conscious decision that they weren’t going to make those matches about themselves. No, they had a task that wasn’t dependent on bringing out the best in each other. Their task was to get Benoit over and cement him as THE champion, and so they weren’t thinking about the chemistry they would/wouldn’t have with each other. Nothing felt over-planned. It all felt so organic.
Now compare that to some of their other PPV matches this decade:
Their 2/3 match at Armageddon 2002: It felt planned around spots, and I don’t think Shawn was at “world championship” capacity as far as workrate was concerned. He wasn’t ready to be in that main event, 30 mins + position right away. It just felt like a bit of a mess.
Their Last Man Standing Match at RR04: Felt like they were trying to give a more grandiose version of their Raw match the month before and collapsed under the weight of the expectations to upstage their prior effort.
Their Hell in a Cell Match at Badd Blood from later that year: This is the match that popped the theory into my head, as you could tell they were trying to have the “OMG EPIC” match that was worthy of being the blow-off to their on-again/off-again feud since 2002. And the match wound up going at least ten minutes too long, and the crowd died very slowly throughout. It was strange.
Anyway, nice pick on the 2004 Royal Rumble. I would have completely missed that one. And it’s a bold pick, if for no other reason than not a lot of Rumbles get singled out for preservation, and the fact that it’s got Benoit in it (who showed up on the new episode of MNW: The Beginning on 24/7 – I wonder if it was a mistake or if they’re slowly reintegrating him back into the archives).
I know Charlie DUD’ed their HiaC match and I was close to doing the same (essentially * at most). HHH ruined that match by deciding to sell like he’d been shot a machine gun TWENTY SECONDS into the match after they traded punches in the corner. He literally pulled himself up by the ropes after that exchange and you just groan. It was SO SLOW the rest of the way. And that was a long way (47 minutes).
Be a man Scott. You did top 20 matches of the decade for WCW and WWE. The least you can do is an overall top 10 for this decade.
“Be A Man”? So you want Scott to do a rapping podcast wherein he calls Hulk Hogan out because he’s “skeered”?
Not that I think Scott would do that for a second but the idea makes me giggle, I admit.
1. Steve Austin vs. Triple H, No Way Out 2001
2. Steve Austin vs. The Rock, WrestleMania X-Seven
3. Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle, Vengeance 2005
4. Edge & Christian vs. Dudley Boyz vs. Hardy Boyz, TLC, SummerSlam 2000
5. Steve Austin vs. Kurt Angle, SummerSlam 2001
6. Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit, Royal Rumble 2003
7. Triple H vs. Cactus Jack, Street Fight, Royal Rumble 2000
8. Chris Benoit vs. Chris Jericho, Ladder Match, Royal Rumble 2001
9. The Rock vs. Triple H, Iron Man Match, Judgment Day 2000
10. Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels, WrestleMania XXV
Anyone forgetting about HHH/HBK from Raw December 2003? An absolutely tremendous match that I can and have watched over and over again.
Oh man, GOOD call. I completely forgot about that one. I wouldn’t put it in top 5, but it’d definitely be in my top 10.
OK, I’ve watched that goddamn Shawn v Taker match twice, and for me it’s no where near above 3 stars. They just wrestle for a little bit, Taker nearly dies after diving out of the ring, then they lay around for 6 years, only to get up and hit a finisher, kick out, hit a finisher, kick out, hit a finisher, kick out. I found the Triple Threat main event to be far more entertaining. Perhaps I’ll have to go back and have a THIRD look.
Also, Stone Cold vs. Triple H from Survivor Series is a lot better than their No Way Out match. I don’t know what it is for me, but the No Way Out match just doesn’t deliver to me as well as the SS match. Minus the ridiculous ending with Triple H falling 20 feet inside a car.
Also, anyone wonder why Dave Metzler hasn’t rated ANY WWE match 5 stars since the first Hell in a Cell? I mean, not a one. And the first HIAC isn’t 5 stars because of the stupid assed ending.
Goddamn, I’ll have to hit up the Nerd-Cave to come up with the Top 10 Best of the Decade, but here’s my top two for sure…
1. Mick Foley vs. Randy Orton – Backlash 2004.
C’mon! The greatest match EVER, in my opinion. There are so many points where you think “OK, it can end here, I’m happy” Then TADOW, it just keeps going.
2. Kurt Angle vs. The Undertaker – No Way Out 2006
They seriously just wrestled their asses off. It’s out of control. Love it.
- Caliber
scrublife.wordpress.com – Top 5 Wrestling Games, I review The Hell In A Cell DVD, get your fortune read and as usual slides are available in the gift shop…
“Also, anyone wonder why Dave Metzler hasn’t rated ANY WWE match 5 stars since the first Hell in a Cell?”
Probably because when you’ve seen the ridiculous amount of wrestling he has, it takes a lot to get a ***** rating.
I mean it’s a matter of opinion, sure, but I think you’re nuts if you thought the Cena/Show/Edge match was better than UT/HBK.
I think in a few years our children will watch that Undertaker/Shawn match from WrestleMania 25 and they’ll say, “THAT was your Match of the Decade???” And we’ll say, “Well, we really wanted a great match on that show, and if we hoped hard enough it would make it happen.” And they’ll say, “One guy hits a big move, they get a near-fall, then the lie around for two minutes while nothing’s happening, and then they do it again? What’s so great about that?” And then will, say… “Well, at least we didn’t make it the match of the DECADE.”
I actually felt a little dirty agreeing with the wanker caliber for a minute, then he went and embarassed himself all to hell by declaring Orton/Foley a match of the DECADE contender (here’s a hint, it wasn’t even the match of the NIGHT on the show it was on).
I haven’t thought about it too much, but I’d probably be OK with HHH/Cactus or Benoit/HHH/Michaels. Or Angle/Micheals from WrestleMania XXI.
I may be a wanker, yes. But at least I don’t punctuate every other word I type. Or, is that how you speak in real life?
“Hello, DEAR! I’m HOME from WORK! Now leave me ALONE, I’m going to the DEN, to watch GOSSIP GIRL!”
Oh, and don’t worry about explaining the Taker/HBK match to your kids, you could never get the license – http://scrublife.wordpress.com/2009/10/28/you-should-have-a-license-to-have-kids/
Other than one misplaced comma, all of that punctuation BELONGS there.
Idiot…
I think he means capitalize instead of punctuate? Maybe? I don’t know.
Caliber, I liked Orton-Cactus as well, but nowhere near that much. If that’s your style, isn’t the HHH-Cactus street fight the note-perfect example of that style? It’s probably my Match of the Decade, either that or Rock-Austin from WMX7 for the same reasons people stated above.
To each his own, but unless you’re a member of the Orton family, isn’t preferring that match to HHH-Cactus sort of like saying “well, that Michaels-Razor ladder match at WMX was sort of impressive, but I’ve gotta go with Jeff Hardy vs. Edge from Extreme Rules!”?
Yeah, I have no idea what he means.
Triple H vs. Cactus is great, but I think I’ve seen it too much. I don’t know, I don’t ever feel the need to watch it. I think their rematch at No Way Out was far more intense.
But let’s take a look at Mick/Orton. You’ve got the barb-wire boards, bats, 2×4s. You’ve got the awesome tac spot, the brawling up stage. Orton being thrown off the stage, the awesome elbow…all of these incredible spots all sewn together with incredible wrestling. It was such an awesome bout, that was all pieced together with the awesome feud between Mick and Orton. Foley doesn’t call this his personal favorite match of all time for nothing.
I don’t know why people jizz all over the three way at WM20. If Benoit hadn’t got the shaft for so long, would people still think it’s that great? No. If you ask me, Eddie vs. Brock was the match of that year. The story that it told was tremendous. Brock playing the unstoppable heel, screaming things like “DIE! EDDIE, DIE!” through out the match. It was all so fantastic.
“I think in a few years our children will watch that Undertaker/Shawn match from WrestleMania 25 and they’ll say, “THAT was your Match of the Decade???” And we’ll say, “Well, we really wanted a great match on that show, and if we hoped hard enough it would make it happen.” And they’ll say, “One guy hits a big move, they get a near-fall, then the lie around for two minutes while nothing’s happening, and then they do it again? What’s so great about that?” And then will, say… “Well, at least we didn’t make it the match of the DECADE.”
It’s really no different than how a lot of the fanbase (both mark and smark alike) react now to the matches of yore. I know a lot of people who’d fall asleep during Flair/Steamboat or Flair/Windham. “One guy hits a big move, they get a near-fall, then the lie around for two minutes while nothing’s happening, and then they do it again” isn’t really that different from “one guy gets an arm drag, an arm drag, an arm drag, a dropkick, then cinches in the side headlock and hooks it in, then they get up and do it again.” The difference being that they still do the arm drag/dropkick/side headlock spot thirty minutes into the match, like it’s still the feeling out process or something.
Hey, nobody has to preach to me about why Flair/Steamboat or Savage/Steamboat are masterpieces of their era, but there are very, very few matches that are truly timeless (in the sense that you can show them to fans of any era and they’ll be into it). In fact, that would make for a pretty good debate, since I really don’t know what I’d show to a friend that I’m trying to convert into a fan.
Maybe the first Hell in a Cell match? One of the first three TLC matches?
You know, I just might show Flair/Steamboat. They might find it boring, but it shows how pro wrestling at one time could be treated as a sport. Maybe not a legitimate sport, but certainly a legitimate athletic display that non-fans, whether they liked it or not, could at least respect on that level. Today, wrestling fans just get scoffed at. I’m 24 and it’s as hard to defend now than at any time I could remember.
Actually I think in a few years time people will sit around and talk about the HBK vs Undertaker body of work in the same way as people talk about Flari – Steamboat.
Not because the of the individual matches, but because between the three main matches (HitC, WM 25 and the Royal Rumble brawl where Michaels screwed his back up) show how two workers could wrestle three fantastic matches across different styles and two decades.
In the 2000s only Cena Vs Edge come close to matching them across the whole series. Even if we stretch the definition to the modern era, I say only Auston Vs Bret is an equivalent gem (I’d even give them the edge as a feud since I think the story line was stronger, but its really close).
Count me in with the crowd who finds Steamboat/Flair boring. Sorry. I just did not enjoy it that much (I only have seen the WrestleWar match).
On the other hand, I love Steamboat/Savage. Still holds up. Still one of the best ever.
HHH/Cactus is right up there for match of the decade for me. Probably gets my vote.
Don’t forget the HBK-Undertaker match from Ground Zero which was really fun as well and would’ve’ been even better with a proper finish (though it did set up HITC so the ending made sense).
I’m still undecided as to whether Michaels-Taker merits the full monty, but ***? Y’all are insane.
Scott, have you had a chance to catch Turning Point yet? The Triple Threat is a legitimate MOTYC, and Angle-Wolfe is also pretty awesome.
If we’re really going to count down the best WWE matches of the decade, the list might as well just be a ranking of the best matches featuring Shawn Michaels:
- HBK/HHH/Benoit, Wrestlemania 20 (the rematch at Backlash also awesome, and the best match on that show, regardless of any nonsensical opinions about Orton/Cactus)
- HBK/Angle, Wrestlemania 21 (the rematch at Vengeance also awesome)
- HBK/Cena, Wrestlemania 23
- HBK/Flair, Wrestlemania 24
- HBK/Undertaker, Wrestlemania 25
- HBK/Jericho, Ladder Match, No Mercy 2008
- HBK/HHH, Hell in a Cell, Bad Blood 2004
I’d round the list out with the TLC match from Wrestlemania X7, Cactus/HHH from Rumble 2000, and the Rock/HHH Iron Man Match from Judgment Day 2000.
Those would be my ten in some order. I’d probably have the first HBK/Angle match at #1. Is there any doubt HBK is the wrestler of the decade?
Wow. You’re right. There are a ton of great HBK matches from this decade. I’d add HBK Jericho from Mania 19 and HBK-Cena from Raw as well.
I love Top 10 Lists and such, so I wanted to chime in.
I don’t really watch a lot of TNA and I don’t get ROH, so unfortunately, my list is all WWF/E. Also, I tend to give a match some more love for the story and the emotional reaction than just pure technical beauty, so I know some matches (like #7) might seem a little high, but in the end I based it on how much I enjoyed a match. Iit is all subjective, so take it for what it is worth….
Honorable Mentions- Austin V Benoit: Smackdown, Michaels V Angle: WM21, Angle V Lesnar: WM 21, Michaels V Cena: Raw, Awsome V Tanaka: One Night Stand, Edge V Foley: WM22 and Angle V Benoit: RR03
10- Shawn Michaels Vs HHHH (Unsanctioned Match): Summer Slam 02
9- Steve Austin Vs HHH (3 Stages of Hell): No Way Out 01
8- Chris Jericho/Chris Benoit Vs Steve Austin/HHH (Tag Team Titles): Raw
7-HHH/X Pac/Perry Saturn/Dean Malenko/Chris Benoit VS Cactus Jack/Rock/Rikishi/Brian Christopher/Scott Taylor: Raw
6- Hardy Boys Vs Dudley Boys Vs Edge/Christian (TLC/Tag Team Titles): Wrestlemania 17
5- Rock Vs HHH (Iron Man Match/WWF Title): Judgment Day 00
4- Shawn Michaels Vs Undertaker: Wrestlemania 25
3- HHH Vs Cactus Jack (Streetfight/WWF Title): Royal Rumble 00
2- Steve Austin Vs Rock (NO DQ/WWF Title): Wrestlemania 17
1-Chris Benoit Vs HHH Vs Shawn Michaels (World Title): Wrestlemania 20
“7-HHH/X Pac/Perry Saturn/Dean Malenko/Chris Benoit VS Cactus Jack/Rock/Rikishi/Brian Christopher/Scott Taylor: Raw”
Certainly one of the more underrated matches, esp since it has been almost 10 years now. It goes along with my theory that it is really hard to fuck up a 5 on 5 tag match.
I remember watching with a group of friends and when Too Cools music hit the roof almost blew off the arena. We were all just like “Really? For Too Cool and Rikishi?” But it was just pure fun. The DX/Radicals were just gleefully evil and Mick was such a sympathetic face…. just a great match that showed how much a red hot crowd can add.
I am still in awe at how over Too Cool and Rikishi were for that little period in early-2000.
I think at first they were kind of over as joke wrestler with a one-note gag. Then, at some point (I don’t know when) they crossed over as mega-faces who could team with Rocky and Cactus and be just as over as they were.
I agree with the people underwhelmed by HBK v Undertaker. It wasn’t anything that great. There was just waaaay too much lying around for me.
Now, Joe v Punk 2 is the best match I have ever seen. The story is told perfectly, the drama is exactly right, it has the “big show” feeling to it due to the match taking place in Chicago. It’s just pitch perfect in every way.
HBK started wrestling in the mid 80’s. I mean, seriously, at the beginning of the decade everyone thought he was crippled and retired, then he goes on to have “MOTD” candidates? I think that’s pretty damn impressive…..
HBK could arguably be named Wrestler of the Decade if you look at all the highly rated matches he had. No one else can boast the same.
Have to agree about Shawn being Wrestler of the Decade. There are few people out there who can go and have great matches with almost anyone. Hell he took Vince McMahon to a good match at ‘Mania. Only other names I could think for WOTD would be Angle and Samoa Joe. I really want to say Chris Benoit but….fact is I still can’t watch a Benoit match. It’s a shame considering how great an athlete he was, but his legacy is tarnished forever. Anyway, back on topic, Kurt Angle, when he’s on his game, is got to be one of the best of all time. I mean he had great matches with almost every top star of the last 10 years, AJ, Joe, Sting, Taker, Shawn, Benoit, Eddie, the list could go on forever. Just my opinion but it’s a tossup between Shawn or Kurt for WOTD.
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I think Jericho should get some votes here as well.
Charlie: If you’re still reading this I actually think that Benoit’s murder/suicide actually deserves it’s own category compared to all the others that died. Benoit’s death actually got the attention of the media. It’s not like he was just found dead at home or in a hotel room. Books have actually been written about this.
I also think that Flair’s retirement deserves it’s own it’s own separate place. He actually had a sendoff because of who he was, compared to Austin/Rock who both simply walked away.
As for other possibilities:
The creation of ROH. While I have never watched anything from it and it is clearly the #3 promotion behind WWE/TNA, I actually think it has had more of an impact than TNA. After all, we got CM Punk from it, and the WWE seems to be more interested in recruiting from them than TNA at the moment. I think ROH is kinda like old ECW, which was also the #3 promotion behind WWF/WCW, but had a major impact in making stars.
How about the rise of John Cena and the controversy that it still causes? He’s one of WWE main guys, yet he is probably the most decisive superstar they ever had. Half the people love him, the other half hates him.