Scott,
Did you check out the match list for WWE: History of the World Heavyweight Championship
?
There are some real winners here: Flair v. Magnum from the AWA Superclash, Rock & Jericho from no Mercy and Angle v. Undertaker from No Way Out a few years back... and some real stinkers like Luger v. Windham from Bash '91 (I hope they leave the original audio intact), Jeff Jarrett v. Booker T, and HHH v. RVD from Unforgiven '02. They also have some matches form the 60s and 70s, but I'm betting it'll just be clips or something.
Anyway, thoughts? I mean, Rock/Jericho on DVD is a MUST BUY, and so is Flair/Magnum.
Match quality looks pretty great and it’s interesting mix of stuff from a style standpoint, but what the FUCK are they doing with the lineage? The Smackdown title now represents the NWA World title, the WCW World title, the WWE version of the WCW World title from 2001, AND the current “World heavyweight title”? People still have trouble with the WCW-NWA split in 1991, this set is just going to needlessly confuse things even more.
Undisputed NWA WCW International WWE World Heavyweights Champion.
It’s quite simple really.
I assume they’re just negating the actual title, and going on aesthetics. Like, it’s the history of the big gold belt that you’ve seen.
I find it funny there’s a ton of years missing because Batista has them all on his DVD because that’s all the fucker ever wrestlers in.
It’s a damn shame about Benoit, because they could have actually had Kane’s ONLY, I repeat, ONLY good match on this DVD. Their title match at Bad Blood ‘04.
The world title is actually cause for one of my favorite Scott Keith moments. In One Ring Circus he talks about the WWE reviving it, and there was a one-night, 64 man tournament, legends from all around, years past, present, and future competed. All clean finishes, and Lou Thez was the ref. Oh no wait, Triple H was just handed the stupid thing on Raw.
- Caliber
scrublife.wordpress.com – why I think fuckers need a license to have kids, I look back on a random Nitro where Bulldog debuted, and there’s some stuff for your whole family to enjoy.
Kane has had plenty of good matcches. vs Angle, vs Albert, vs Big Show in the BATTLE FOR TECHNICAL SUPREMECY, and defending the ECW title vs Punk on TV are all really good off the top of my head.
Yeah, the match selection is interesting (and very telling), but the lineage deal is very convoluted. And who knows where the WCW title and the various NWA offshoots (ECW, TNA) fits into all this, especially if they’re including Windham/Luger?
The Rock vs. Jericho is already on DVD, so is Angle vs. Taker. I’d rather have them put more “obscure” matches on the set (like the Angle vs. Taker rematch). to be fair they’ll do exactly that with the Rey vs. Orton Smackdown match (which was great and one of the very few highlights of the Mysterio’s title reign).
What is stupid is how when they were competing with WCW, the WWF went out of their way to tell everyone that the wCW Title was NOT the successor to the NWA Title, and even bored everyone to tears by bringing Severn onto WWF tv for his mind-numbingly tedious matches.
Then in 2002, since TNA were using the NWA Title, and WWE now owned WCW, by gum, here’s the Big Gold Belt, and yes it CAN be traced back almost to the days of Abe Lincoln.
And then they can’t keep it straight from one SEGMENT to the next whether the World Title is the same thing as the old WCW Title or something totally different.
But then in their craze to kiss Ric Flair’s ugly old ass, they claim that he was “NWA World Champion” in 1993. First, the NWA belt was a secondary WCW Title at that point, but if the WCW Title that Vader held at that time was the REAL NWA Title, then what did Flair win from Windham?
And when WWE make dumbass comments like “when the NWA Title still meant something” as a way of attacking TNA, the how can their World Title be the continuation of the NWA Title, when there is already a (degraded) NWA Title still going?
And now Frank Gotch was the first guy to hold the belt that Booger Dead currently has? Hilarious.
“…then in their craze to kiss Ric Flair’s ugly old ass, they claim that he was “NWA World Champion” in 1993. First, the NWA belt was a secondary WCW Title at that point…”
Incorrect on both points, but there were maybe a hundred people total who were watching WCW during one of the stranger points in their history.
-Flair’s victory over Windham was specifically referred to at the time as his “tenth World title” (and even once by Bischoff as his “tenth NWA title”, which was also correct, depending on which reigns were being counted).
-There was a period in mid-1993 where WCW not only specifically billed Windham (and later Flair) as the world champion, but specifically avoided referring to Vader as anything but simply the “WCW Champion”. There were even a number of TV appearances where Vader (who was stuck in the horrible feud with Sid against Sting/Davey Boy Smith) showed up sans belt.
At the same time, Austin & PIllman were doing TV with only the NWA tag belts (the Unified tag champs in the 1992-93 era typically carried both sets of belts, as WWE’s “unified tag champs” do now).
Of course, all of this came to a screeching half as soon as what was left of the NWA filed suit over Rick Rude being billed as NWA World Champion at the Disney-MGM tapings before he’d actually won the title, but before that, there was a strong effort on WCW television to utilize the NWA name as much as possible.
ER, no. It was quite clear from all the evtns that the ”’WCW”’ Champion was the Real World Champion, and the Main Event was typically the WCW World Title match. I even remember reports that at at least one show, the NWA Title guys were warned about NOT putting on too good a match, in case it took away from the importance of the WCW match. Whenever anyone at the time talked about the “2 World Champions”, they meant WWF and WCW, not WWF and NWA, and all the magazines, such as PWI, referred to the WCW Champion as the World Champion, and the NWA Champion as just that…the NWA Champion.
Furthermore, WCW actually had you know a roster of wrestlers. They had their own tv shows, magazine, brand etc. All the NWA had was a name. That’s why in 1994 the NWA had to piggyback ECW for their tournament, and we all know how THAT ended up.
Nobody ever said that Flair wasn’t NWA Champion in 1993, but that title was a shadow of what it had been in 1983.
And anyway the point was that WWE are now claiming that the lineage went NWA-WCW-World, meaning that in 1993 the guy holding what was the NWA Title in 1948 would have been the WCW Champion. But by WWE recognizing that Flair, Windham were NWA Champion, WWE’s are refuting their own claims.
“It was quite clear from all the evtns that the ”’WCW”’ Champion was the Real World Champion, and the Main Event was typically the WCW World Title match.”
Except for…
a) Flair returning to WCW in the spring of 1993, with WCW billing him as a nine-time world champion (at this point, they were specifically counting seven NWA & two WWF reigns). When he beat Windham for the NWA belt, it was (once again, specifically) referred to as his tenth world title.
b) that period in mid-1993 where Vader was stuck in said horrible feud, being referred to as simply the “WCW Champion”, and sometimes not even wearing his title belt to the ring.
To further reinforce the true point, while all of this was going on, the U.S. title was “held up” and not defended on TV between May and September, and explained away with an angle revolving around Rick Rude having stolen the belt after a disputed match with Dustin Rhodes, and holding it hostage in a briefcase. In fact, one of the first things WCW did after losing control of the NWA world title was to immediately put the almost-forgotten U.S. belt back on Dustin.
The statement “the NWA belt was a secondary WCW Title at that point” is wrong and uninformed. Before WCW had to abruptly switch gears because of the dispute over Rude’s planned win, they had more than established that the NWA World & World tag championships were the top prizes within WCW. Only the dispute (and the subsequent lawsuits) changed that.
Yes, Flair’s NWA win was called a “World Title win”, but when people win the ScyFy ECW Title today, WWE calls it a “World Title win”. And?
For the ordinary fan watching WCW at the time, and following the business through the markazines that still sold lots of copies at the time, they would have felt that the WCW Title was the #1 Title in WCW at the time. WCW Title matches typically headlined shows, and PPV Main Events were based around whatever match the WCW Champion was in. Windham or Flair never got to shoot a minimovie somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico now did they?
Vader only had the belt when his segment directly related to the Title itself. Otherwise you get stupidity where a tag team champion fights in a singles match, and then lifts the belt over his head after the match, as though he’s successfully defended it, when in fact the match he’s just been in wasn’t even a tag match! Or a champion celebrating after surviving a Survivor Series match with the belt! If the Title was actually involved, Vader had his WORLD Title belt.
Also, the NWA and WCW Tag Champions were the same people at this point. And the NWA have tried to appropriate the WCW Tag Title lineage as well, whereas their belts only stretch back to 1992!
Anyway, the basic point, again, was that WWE now recognize that Windham, Flair and others were NWA Champion, yet they also claim that the WCW Title is the same thing as the 1948 NWA Title. And this after they even had the NWA Champion on RAW back in 1998 or so.
And once again, I think you’d actually have a point to make if you’d actually been watching WCW in 1993, and not forming your opinion based on Wikipedia articles and markboard reports falsely attributed to Dave Meltzer.
I was watching WCW in 1993, and none of what I have said was based on wikipedia articles or markboard reports. Any references to those things were just the icing. The cake was that WCW Main Events normally revolved around the WCW World Champion at the time, and that the markazines like PWI referred to the WCW Champion as a World Champion, and the NWA Champion as just a Heavyweight Champion. Anything the markboards or wikipedia say/said is jut extra.
You’re not Dennis Trobich trolling here, are you?
You’re not going to get anywhere if the only evidence you cite is “markazines”. Thanks for playing.
Flair-Magnum T.A. had a pretty decent match at SuperClash, but I really liked their 10-min. battle on “World Championship Wrestling,” but that wasn’t a title contest.
I don’t recall Vader Vs. Steamboat, so I’m looking forward to watching that one. Luger Vs. Windham isn’t very good. I’d rather have Flair Vs. Eaton 2/3 Falls from a month earlier. I also wish they had included Flair Vs. Hogan from Uncensored ‘99 when Flair was actually allowed to beat The Hulk for once. Can’t have everything I suppose.
So, if we’re going by the documentary summaries and match listings, the official ‘World Heavyweight Title’ held by Undertaker consists of:
- The Catch-As-Catch-Can Title from 1905 (Gotch and Lewis)
* The pre-1948 National Wrestling Association Title (This is the first World title Lou Thesz won and held numerous times, so if they call him a ’seven-time World champion’ on the set then they’re talking about this belt, too)
- The Classic NWA World Title (Obviously, but they’re ignoring the ECW run, as well as the various splits and offshoots which would require a ten-disc set. And who knows if and how they’re going to explain WCW having two different versions of the same belt during the same timeframe?)
- The WCW World Title (The Luger and Vader matches)
* The WCW International World Title (Since they’re acknowledging the WCW/NWA split, one would assume that they’d have to mention this particular version. You never know, though.)
- The ‘Unified’ WCW/NWA (WCW International) Title (1994-2001 and the WWE Version)
- The Undisputed WWE Title (Rock vs. Jericho)
- The Hunter Hearst Helmsley Memorial Invitational Central States Heavyweight Championship (2002-Present)
Even by WWEvisionist History™ standards, this is a little ridiculous.
I have never seen what the big deal is about seeing the continuation of the world title from Hackenscmidt (or at least 1948 NWA) to Taker. It is simply the history of the most prominent title known as the “World Heavyweight Title” and not just the NWA, who happened to its’ controlling body from 1948 to 1990. The lineage from Thesz to Taker on Smackdown is FAR less convoluted than the indy fed mockery of a title history currently claimed by Blue Demon Jr. (Long periods of inactivity, indy tournaments, more vacancies, non-sensical stripping of recognition).
The NWA Title in 1948 was nothing but one of a myriad of titles, until Orville Brown was injured and Thesz took the title unifying it with his more valuable World Title, previously controlled by the National Wrestling Association dating back to the early 30s. Admittedly It gets confusing and messy pre-1930, but it is possible to link the Nation Wrestling Association’s control of the World Title to the one contested by Gotch and Hackenscmidt.
Later on, when Crockett’s NWA became WCW, all wrestlers, employees, TV deals and titles all smoothly transitioned into a new name, not a new company (Turner already owned it by then). It is only the chance happening of Flair jumping to WWF right after the transition time that causes any confusion at all. He was not recognized at the time as having yet another world title run just because the company was now called WCW. Admittedly WCW confused things by creating a new NWA World Title a year or so later in a deal with Japan; but I see no reason not to recognize that it was unified with the World Heavyweight Championship when Flair beat Sting. Just because a bunch of indy promoters calling themselves “NWA” didn’t want to recognize Rick Rude, and rather wanted to have their new third rate title thrown on the floor by Shane Douglas, doesn’t mean that their “NWA World” Title was worth anything and truly representative of the World Title stretching back to the dawn of he NWA and beyond, just by the power of their mere say so.
Fast forwarding when the WWF bought WCW, of course with it came the then WCW controlled World Heavyweight Title, which lost the WCW acronym after the Survivor Series 2001; but the title remained. Jericho held this title without the WCW attached to it before also winning the WWE Title; and then lost them to HHH, whose undisputed Championship was still represented by BOTH WWE and World Heavyweight Titles until a singular belt was introduced after Wrestlemania. This single Undisputed title belt represented BOTH Titles, and the two titles were simply separated again when Bischoff awarded the World Title to HHH, lineage in-tact.
The main arguement against this seems to be that WWE does not combine the title histories on their website. So what? It is only because it would likely be confusing to new fans and a very long list. They also don’t recognize Antonio Inoki holding the WWE Title and don’t mention Moolah ever losing the Women’s belt for 27 years, but this is clearly not the case, so their word is not gospel by any means. Anyway this argument goes on and on, I am just glad to see these older World Title matches included. The lineage is about the Title, not the organization that owned it at the time. Cheers.
But as noted, WWE itself recognized the ‘third rate title’ and as Johnny C. noted went out of their way to point out the distinction. It doesn’t matter in the long run, true enough, but if you’re going keep to changing history on whim you’ve got to expect people who actually pay attention to complain.
Granted, but the statement I am trying to make is that it is not the “NWA” name that is important, it is the “World Title” that is important has continued on through different governing bodies.
The new NWA title of the mid-nineties had a really weak claim with no lineage connection to speak of. They just stripped recognition of Rude for the “NWA” initials, Shane Douglas won the belt and threw it away; the indy promoters waited a while and gave it to Candido while it was contested by wrestlers who were not even part of the big three of the attitude era. Dan Severn brought it to Japan to try and bring some legitimacy, even showed up in WWF, but the title was rarely defended and was no where near the top title of any large wrestling promotion until TNA. TNA gave the title some prominence, but once again the budget indy promoters took the title out of the national spotlight and created yet another convoluted vacancy with no connection at all to the lineage of the World Title other than a few nobodies saying so. The WWE’s World Title lineage from at least Thesz to Taker is much more traceable, with clear lineage connections (through wrestlers and match results, not just indy promoter meetings held in their mother’s basements), and remained a prestigious and much defended title the whole way through.
The truth is that you can trace the lineage of any major title in professional wrestling to a couple of promoters (usually of varying statures in the industry) meeting in a basement or hotel or wherever to select a champion. So Lou Thesz ‘winning’ a title means about as much as Undertaker or Blue Demon winning one, the only difference being the power and visibilty of the promoter involved and their influence in writing (or rewriting the history.
That’s the ultimate irony of HHH being handed the ‘World Title’ by Eric Bischoff on live TV: that’s the way it’s been done for decades and most of us realized this, but that was the first time we were basically slapped across the face with the fact.
Funny, I had just looked at this on amazon the other day and there was no match listing up (yet a December release). Thought maybe the date was wrong.
“Nitro 7/6/98 – Hollywood Hogan vs. Goldberg”
Obviously this has been on a couple DVDs but I never fail to laugh when the camera cuts to Karl Freaking Malone outside the ring (it was a good diamond cutter at least) and they miss Goldberg’s power kickout after the leg drop – which was kind of really significant, all things considered.
Is it too much to ask to have a fatal four-way unification match at Mania for the Undisputed Championship of the world featuring the Raw Champ, Smackdown Champ, ECW Champ, and Royal Rumble winner?
Why not throw in the MITB winner as well while you’re wishing for things that aren’t likely at this point?