A couple of months ago I e-mailed you 10 rapid fire questions, and the readers seemed to enjoy it so here's part two.
Again, the premise is 10 quick questions, answer with the first things that come to mind.
here we go!
1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i should say write)
2. Best Hogan match ever?
3. Demolition or Road Warriors?
4. Midnights or RocknRolls?
5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler's List, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and what needs inclusion? (i think 2001 DEFINITLY belongs, thats me though)
6. On the best day's of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or Shawn?
7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
8. If Terry Funk retired in 89 after the I quit with Flair and never had his ECW stint, would we REALLY consider him a legend nowadays or would he be another old timer we barely recognize like Verne Gagne or Lou Thesz?
9. Favorite Sting-Vader match?
10. Ever seen AJ-Joe-Daniels from Unbreakable 05? If so what you think? Meltzer said its ***** and the best 3 way ever (better than WM20 even)
1. Well that’s hardly a fair question. You can’t make choices like that in a lightning round.
2. Against Warrior at WM6.
3. Demolition. I was never into the Road Warriors.
4. Midnights. I’m more specifically a fan of Ricky Morton when it comes to the RNR.
5. I’d say Godfather part 2 belongs in there, but I haven’t seen them all so it’s not fair to judge the rest.
6. Shawn.
7. Yes. Yes it is.
8. Funk was a former NWA World champion and a huge star long before he became a crazy old man, so yes, we’d still remember him. For his WWF stint in the 80s if nothing else.
9. The one from Starrcade 92.
10. Yes, it’s definitely *****. The three-way at WM didn’t happen and was just a dream (along with Backlash) so I don’t have a point of comparison, but hypothetically if that WM main event DID happen it’s still the best because of the bigger match feel.
Related Posts:
- Dream Tag Team tournament: Round one begins!
- Back to Starrcade
- LIGHTNING ROUND~!
- Tag tournament round one – RESULTS!
- The SmarK 24/7 Rant for World Championship Wrestling – September 20 1986
Tags: ECW, I Quit, NWA, Starrcade, Sting, Terry Funk, Vader, WWF
I think the Royal Rumble is the greatest gimmick match ever created. I love WarGames…but you can mess up WarGames. The gimmick of the Royal Rumble is so perfect that it’s impossible to screw up. Unless Vince Russo decides Vince McMahon should do commentary for 30 minutes and still win the match…other than that, it’s pretty fail-proof.
The thing is, aside from 1992, I don’t think that the Rumble matches have ever been consistently good from beginning to end. Sure, you’d have periods where big stars were going toe-to-toe and where storylines came together, but there are also LONG periods of midcarders laying around doing nothing until the next big name comes out. Plus, thanks to the lopsided booking these days there’s very little suspense about who will win.
It still has the built-in appeal that every two minutes (90 seconds, whatever) you get excited. And I think the brand split has helped with the suspense factor…instead of one obvious winner (HHH in 2002, Lesnar in 2003) they are at least two obvious winners…and they’ve done a good job of establishing a decent number that could win. I do agree it would help if one win, a total outsider (Kofi Kingston, John Morrison) pulled an upset.
I really enjoyed the 2004 Rumble, I think it was pretty obvious that Benoit would win, but the ride there was so much fun.
Yeah, it’s weird how people talk about HBK/HHH at WM 20 like it was a 3-way. And then they kinda…lost the title belt after the match. It didn’t appear again until after Summerslam when Orton announced he found it.
That imaginary triple threat was definitely better than TNA’s.
Shawn v Bret whose better…. HBK might just edge it due to always putting more emotional content in his matches, but damn is that as close as asking if you had to pick which of your children do you love more?
I had a discussion at another site about the whole Savage/Hart vs Shawn/Flair match from the Savage dvd. It was pretty much the consensus that Hart was fourth out of that group. Flair was number 1 with Savage and Shawn about equal.
Well it comes down to opinion really… when you have 4 of the best of all time who can put on a hell of a wrestling match at their peaks then what it comes down to is personal preference.
On my list I’d have:
1) Shawn 2) Bret 3) Flair 4) Savage
However ask me on another day that list could be completely different!
Picking a greatest wrestler is impossible. For example…I’m pretty sure Shawn Michaels is the greatest wrestler of all time, in terms of in-ring work. But I was a huge mark for Savage & Bret growing up…so I think they’re both better. I have both of their DVDs…I don’t have Shawn’s.
I think Savage doesn’t get enough credit because he spent his prime dragging Hogan & Warrior to **** matches. Or worse. And when he did get a worthy opponent (Tito, Bret, Steamboat) the results were mind-blowing. I can’t even imagine what Savage would have been like in the 1980s NWA and being able to absolutely cut loose.
This is a great point. As great as most people are willing to give Savage for being, he was probably even better than THAT. The talent pool of great workers in the WWF during Savage’s prime was underwhelming compared to what Flair, Bret, and Shawn were able to thrive with. As you said, Savage was responsible for the most enjoyable Hogan and Warrior matches I’ve ever seen, and the WM III match with Steamboat is still my favorite ever.
I can hardly imagine what a 1986-89 Savage would’ve been able to do against Tully, Arn, Windham, Flair, Eaton, or any number of others. Even a match against Dusty would’ve been entertaining as hell, just for the heat factor alone.
1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i should say write)
-I liked “Wrestling’s Made Men.”
2. Best Hogan match ever?
-Warrior at Wrestlemania 6. I haven’t seen all his Japanese matches but I’ve heard some were epic.
3. Demolition or Road Warriors?
-Road Warriors without question, more because of cool factor rather then workrate.
4. Midnights or RocknRolls?
-Rock ‘n’ Rolls for me, the best team ever at the “Face in Peril” aspect of Tag Wrestling.
5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler’s List, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and what needs inclusion? (i think 2001 DEFINITLY belongs, thats me though)
-Schindler’s List for me, but my actual favorite movie is Back to the Future.
6. On the best day’s of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or Shawn?
-Shawn.
7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
-Eh, I would rather watch a good wrestling match then a gimmick match, but three War Games, give or take, were truly epic.
8. If Terry Funk retired in 89 after the I quit with Flair and never had his ECW stint, would we REALLY consider him a legend nowadays or would he be another old timer we barely recognize like Verne Gagne or Lou Thesz?
-He would still be remembered because he was in the WWE, but more then that he was a 70s NWA Star and would have had that match with Flair to make cement his place in history. In essence you’re saying nobody would remember him, and yet people remember Harley Race, who basically retired much earlier.
9. Favorite Sting-Vader match?
-Most overrated series ever. They all sucked. Sting always sucked though, so go figure.
10. Ever seen AJ-Joe-Daniels from Unbreakable 05? If so what you think? Meltzer said its ***** and the best 3 way ever (better than WM20 even)
-I called that match ****1/2 as it had typical TNA pacing issues and lots of “Worst Move Ever” stuff. The Wrestlemania match interwove the Chris Benoit climbing the mountain story between the Triple H/Michaels feud without it feeling shoehorned in. It’s still one of the best matches ever, period.
Funny thing about #3. Back in the day when someone first said to me “Demolition are Road Warriors knockoffs” I figured they were making a really weird joke. Besides some very superficial similarities(two big guys with spikes and facepaint who brawl rather than wrestle per se) they were very very different.
The Road Warriors I legitimately thought were being portrayed as a gay duo. Supposed to be destroying the stereotype of gay guys as limpwristed mincers. Here were two flat-cap, mascara and spiked-collar wearing guys who could kick your ass without breaking a sweat. My brother and I would argue over whether Hawk or Animal were the “dominant” one. Seriously, go back and watch those 80’s matches, the homoerotica is there.
Demolition struck me as ripoffs. Ripoffs of KISS that is. The red tongue, the black-and-white facepaint, the studs(Demolition studs were very different to Road Warrior spikes). When Bryan Adams(not an original Demo became the KISS Demon in 1999 he was basically just being Crush, but with a silly casket.
You always got the feeling that after the match, Ax and Smash would go to a bar, have a few beers, and get off with some slutty women. Animal and Hawk, meanwhile would go to some S&M gay bar, and get chained, whipped and sodomized by some big transgender dude. Allegedly.
1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i should say write)
Dungeon of Death…because something i wrote on the blog came up in the book.
5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler’s List, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and what needs inclusion? (i think 2001 DEFINITLY belongs, thats me though)
Casablanca is the best movie ever made. It has the best characters, the best actors, and the best script….and the cherry on top is that it has the best ending line in the best ending scene, ever.
But like Charlie, Back to the Future is my favorite hands down.
6. On the best day’s of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or Shawn?
HBK. What’s the best Bret match of all time? The cage match vs. Owen at SS ‘94? HBK had cage matches better than that, and those matches weren’t even his best. HBK as a heel, HBK as a face, he’s light years head of Bret.
10. Ever seen AJ-Joe-Daniels from Unbreakable 05? If so what you think? Meltzer said its ***** and the best 3 way ever (better than WM20 even)
I’ve never seen AJ-Joe-Daniels in a three way or in a singles match versus any opponent. That being said, i still know the WM20 three way is still the best three way, and probably the best match ive ever seen.
1. I liked the first one, mainly because it actually reads like a fan trying to describe the wrestling industry to a non-fan in basic terms.
2. WrestleMania V. I’ve never been a huge fan of the Hogan/Warrior match, even though I appreciate it more now. But Hogan/Savage still holds up two decades later.
3. Demolition was far more entertaining to me, but in all fairness I missed most of the LOD’s heyday the first time around. Their WWF run sucked for the most part, and the less said about Rocko the Dummy, the better.
4. The Midnights, but mainly for Cornette. And, to answer the presumed follow-up question, the Stan Lane version.
5. I can’t argue with the choices, since I’ve never been of the now-popular opinion that The Godfather II was better than The Godfather. It’s still the best sequel ever made, but there’s a reason why people still quote the original four decades later.
6. That’s a tough one, because Shawn’s actually a better worker now than he was during his glory days (even with all the injuries) but Bret was always more credible as champion from a workrate standpoint. So I’m going to wuss out and call it a draw.
7. I’ve always been partial to the ‘I Quit’ match, but since Wargames is just an extension of that…
8. Probably the latter, since his WWF stint wasn’t much to write home about and the WCW run was plagued by bad box-office and eventually led to Flair getting turfed as booker. But given his acting career, he’d probably have become more of a “Lou Albano/Ox Baker/H.B. Haggerty” type, a semi-mainstream personality but with a better wrestling legacy than most. Especially since the 1970’s tend to be ignored even for historical purposes.
9. Great American Bash 1992, the match that made me a lifetime Vader mark.
10. I really don’t like triple-threat matches, but of the ones I’ve seen the now-tainted WM20 bout is still the best of the lot. Honestly still don’t think I can ever watch it again, though.
Steamboat should be in any converstaion about best ever. But I think when you add his recent run to his work pre WM14, HBK is the best of all time.
I loves me some Wargame, but the heels always winning the coin flip was necessary, but silly. When done right, the Hell in a Cell is something special.
Tag Team wrestling was so great in the 80s- The Expresses, Roadies, Bulldogs, Harts, Rockers and Tully and Arn… just to name a few. Not really an answer to a question, just makes me remember how much I loved it back then…
And I know it is a fanboy answer, but Star Wars should be in the Top 10 movie list, because it is a cinamatic achievement, even if it is for a different reason and it change the face of the American movie experience forever.
*changed*
I disagree. Steamboat had a handful of great matches, but they were against a very select group of people. I can think of only a couple of great matches that he had that were not against Flair or Savage and those would be against Bret Hart (the match on Bret’s DVD) and Rick Rude (30-minute Iron Man from Beach Blast 1992). Three of those 4 are also in the discussion for best ever.
His series against Muraco and Jake the Snake were good, but I wouldn’t say great. I’d say the same about the tag matches he and Douglas had against the Hollywood Blonds. Other than those, I can’t even think of any memorable Steamboat matches.
If you include mic work as a criterion for choosing the best ever, then Steamboat is finished. He was nowhere near the level of Flair, Savage, or Michaels.
First off if mic work is a factor, you better knock Hart and Savage off the list, because Steamboat was just as good as either of them, but in a different way. The thing about Steamboat was that he could have a good match against almost anyone because he was just so smooth in the ring. So if a guy had any skill whatsoever he and Steamboat would have a good match. And, when you put him in with someone who was a talent he would put on a ***** match. His matches with Flair and Savage were widely considered the top two matches of all time in to the mid 90s.
And, as far as not having any “memorable matches”- I think that might be a matter of perspective. His body of work reaches back before the Wrestlemania era when he was a star in to the late 70s/early 80s.
I guess I am going to turn this in to a short review of his career here…
Most people know about his first series with Flair, but he also had some great matches in a good feud with Tully Blanchard and some awesome tag work with Jay Youngblood. They had great brawling matches with Sergeant Slaughter and Don Kernodle and a classic series with Jack and jerry Brisco that were some of the best tag matches of all time.
Then there was his WWF stuff (where work rate was not placed at a premium) with Don Muraco and Jake Roberts before the Savage run.
In WCW he had the series with Flair and then a match with Lex Lugar at Halloween Havoc that was probably the best Lugar ever had (yes better than his stuff with Flair and the Sting tag against the Steiners).
After a bad run back in the WWF, he finished his carrear in WCW with good matchs against Rick Rude and Steve Austin, great matches against Flair (again) and in the tag division (most notably with Shane Douglas against the Hollywood Blonds) and an Epic Wargame against the Dangerous Alliance.
So to say that he only had two memorable matches just because a good portion of his career came in the pre and early days of Pay Per View is really slighting a guys who the top workers themselves (Flair, Savage, Michaels and Jericho just off the top of my head) generally name as one of the greatest of all time.
I never said that Hart’s mic work was better than Steamboats. However, I can think of at least a few good Hart promos whereas I can not think of any Steamboat promos. To say that Steamboat’s mic work was better than Savage’s is just laughable. Any time that Savage was behind the mic was gold and I defy anyone to show me a single Steamboat promo that tops any Savage promo on the third disc of the Savage DVD.
I also never said that Steamboat had only two memorable matches. I said that I couldn’t think of any memorable matches outside of the series that I mentioned. If you note, I named 7 series. The only examples that you gave outside of those series are the early 80s NWA matches and the match against Luger. I haven’t seen much of Steamboat’s early NWA work, but if the matches against the Briscoes and Tully from the early Starrcades are prime examples, then I am not impressed. I’ve never seen the match against Luger but Luger’s been in enough good matches that I don’t consider it a mind-boggling achievement to carry him to a great match. It’s not like Luger is El Gigante, Yokozuna, or Kevin Nash.
I’ve never heard Savage or Michaels name Steamboat as one of the all-time greats. I’m not saying that they haven’t, but I would appreciate a reference.
I always found the strap match from Superbrawl III to be the best of the lot.
I think I need to re-watch the TNA 3 way. I actually fell asleep the first time I saw the Unbreakable 3 way and never re-watch it. The WM20 3 way is my personal favourite and I doubt that’ll change but I’ll give Unbreakable another go in the next week or so.
Re Bret vs Shawn. I still maintain that the style of these two wrestlers was sufficiently different that, in terms of ring work, your preference will depend on which style you like. Bret brought a sense of realism to wrestling – when he wrestled someone like Diesel or Undertaker you could actually imagine that’s how you’d take down a big guy. His matches against Bulldog and Owen were so technically sound, with great counters and pinfalls that were legitimately hard to kick out of. That’s why Bret’s best matches were straight up wrestling matches with Bulldog, Perfect and Owen (of course he was still able to brawl as well). Shawn was/is an amazing performer and everything he does looks so smooth. He’s a performer, which is why he’s so well suited to gimmick matches and why his most memorable matches are the ladder and HITC matches (at least from the 90s).
There’s no better contrast than when they’re irish whipped into the turnbuckle. Bret went in chest first (which is more realistic than turning around) and made it look really painful. Shawn does his trademark flip – unrealistic but looks really cool. Having said that, since Shawn’s return in 2002 he’s shown he can do the technical stuff as well, which is probably why he’s the best of all time.
Bret brought a sense of realism to wrestling – when he wrestled someone like Diesel or Undertaker you could actually imagine that’s how you’d take down a big guy. His matches against Bulldog and Owen were so technically sound, with great counters and pinfalls that were legitimately hard to kick out of.
And honestly, that’s one of the main reasons I couldn’t get into the Shawn Michaels title runs in the 1990’s: his offense may have looked ‘cool’ but it never looked like it would actually do any real damage, at least not enough to actually beat someone clean in the middle of the ring. We mock the Five Moves Of Doom, but at least they realistically set up the Sharpshooter and didn’t take you out of the match like some of the silly crap Shawn would pull out of his ass to get a cheap pop.
Shawn was/is an amazing performer and everything he does looks so smooth. He’s a performer, which is why he’s so well suited to gimmick matches and why his most memorable matches are the ladder and HITC matches (at least from the 90s).
I look at 1990’s Shawn the way I look at Jeff Hardy back in 2002 or AJ Styles today: there’s no denying their talents and abilities in the ring. But the crazy stuff they do in matches tends to be less about having a great match and more about ‘look how great I am!’ and trying to prove that they belong in the main event. And while people may pop for the highspots, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they have any sort of emotional attatchment to the performer in question (and honestly, most of them are probably just waiting to see them crash and burn).
Jeff Hardy finally got over as a top guy not because of the crazy highspots, but because people took an interest in his life story and embraced his ‘philosophy’ of living for the moment. Thus, when he ‘retired’ people actually gave a damn. Shawn Michaels still does the ’showstopper’ spots, but he’s far more selective now out of necessity, and he’s learned how to actually connect emotionally with the fans during his matches rather than just going for the ‘ooh, aah’ effect. And that’s why his match with Undertaker stole the show and his work with Legacy might actually have gotten them over if certain people hadn’t been hell bent burying any young talent daring to break through. And that’s why AJ, for all the hard work he’s done over the last seven years, had people laughing and mocking him during his faux retirement angle.
Having said that, since Shawn’s return in 2002 he’s shown he can do the technical stuff as well, which is probably why he’s the best of all time.
Don’t know if I’d go that far, but since his return he’s pulled off some pretty awesome matches and a couple of outright miracles (Vince and Hogan, to name two) in the ring. Still think he’s full of shit most of the time, but I’ve got to give the devil his due.
This is a great point. Bret has always been my favorite and Shawn my second my favorite. I can appreciate both of them for what they are, but when it comes to a debate like this, I will always pick Bret over Shawn.
Bret talks a lot about the ability he and few others have (he names Pat Patterson and Mick Foley… but I’m sure to some degree Michaels has this too) where he can watch the match unfold in his head like a movie. As a viewer, I can totally understand that. His ability to tell a story in a match is unparalleled as far as I’m concerned. I love watching Shawn, Owen, Savage, Steamboat, Perfect, etc. But Bret Hart is in a league of his own as far as storytelling goes.
One point to get off my chest: when everyone rips on the five moves of doom, it seems so misguided. First off, every babyface has a trademark sequence of moves they go through. Watch any match from Shawn’s babyface run in the mid 90s: Flying forearm, kip up, elbow off the top. It’s not a bad thing. Critics like to use the five moves of doom as a way to say that all his matches are identical when nothing could be further from the truth. First off, he didn’t always use the same five moves. He’d mix it up plenty, with a bulldog or superplex, etc. More importantly, he didn’t bust them out at the same point in every match. People act like he used them as part of a formula, like the Hulk up, three punches, slam, big boot, leg drop. That’s simply not true.
I think it’s very telling to look at how Vince viewed Bret. On Bret’s DVD, Vince mentioned how highly he valued Bret’s in-ring ability and I don’t think it was just lip service. Just look at how he utilized Bret. He routinely used him multiple times in the same PPV when that was a really rare thing to do. In a two-year span he wrestled multiple matches at KOTR 93, SS 93, RR 94, WM 10, IYH 1. Can you imagine Vince putting anyone else in a role like that time and time again? I mean he built entire shows around him. Look at KOTR 93 and WM 10… those PPVs might as well have been titled the Bret Hart show.
Vince must have had total confidence in Bret as far as his wrestling ability. I know Summerslam 92 relied on the whole Bulldog winning it in England story, but still, to put that match on last and give it 30 minutes showed his faith in Bret. It was their first PPV without Hogan, their other two megastars from the 80s were in the WWF Title match, and Vince let the IC Title headline the show. I know that doesn’t happen without the Bulldog/Wembley factor but at the same time, I also don’t see it going on last if it were with anyone with Bret. I don’t think he puts Bulldog’s big win on last if he’s in there with the Mountie or even someone like DiBiase or Perfect.
Anyway, I take Bret. I like a ton of Shawn matches, but Bret’s are still my favorite.
I agree completely, except for the last line.
These guys are all awesome, legendary, HOF-level wrestlers, but Michaels always bugged me a bit. He falls too easily into his stock-set of finishing moves, and unlike Bret (who was accused of the same thing), they’re completely random–they don’t build one to the next, and have nothing to do with the Superkick. Shawn’s over-selling can also reach absurd proportions. It’s a fine line.
For all his faults as a human, Kurt Angle is a far more complete and convincing wrestler than Michaels. He’s just as good on the mic, too. I AM a Michaels fan, no question, but if wrestling was more like I WISH it was, there’d be a lot more guys (trying to be) like Bret and Kurt than trying to be like Shawn.
Oh I couldn’t agree more about Angle. Of course it’s all subjective but the reason I said Shawn is probably the best of all time is because of both his range (both in tag team and singles) and longevity.
But if I were to watch any wrestler at their peak, I’d choose Angle any day. Whether he’s a tough guy, likeable face, chicken heel, geek or goof, no-one does it better. He brings the realism and technical ability that Bret had but he also has the promo skills and charisma that HBK and Flair have (imo). From the time that I started watching wrestling, Kurt Angle is the best I’ve ever seen.
>>1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i >>should say write)
Nothing against Scott, but I haven’t read any of his books. Really, I can’t imagine there being much in them that I don’t already know, or heven’t read already.
>>2. Best Hogan match ever?
I think the Warrior match gets so much respect only because it was the first time that Hogan had to act like he was human and not some unbeatable super-hero. I really don’t like this match anymore though. I thought Rock/Hogan was about as entertaining as anything he’s ever done. I also liked Hogan/Brock, but that’s only because I get a perverse thrill out of watching Hogan get killed.
>>3. Demolition or Road Warriors?
Like Scott, I grew up in Canada, so the only wrestling we got was WWF, so I never got to see any AWA or NWA/WCW until after Nitro had been running a while. That being said, the Road Warriors were cool, but they were pretty much pushed like any other WWF monster team at the time, so they really didn’t seem like anything special like they did in other promotions. When I was a kid I loved Demolition- they had cool music, and you just knew when they were walking to the ring that someone was going to get the shit kicked out of them.
>>4. Midnights or RocknRolls?
I never saw them in their heyday, but I did make a point to go back and check out a bunch of their matches. RnR were good, but really it was the same match over and over. The Midnights were the ultimate team if you mark for heels, because they were so clever and crazy evil with the antics they’d pull, and once you add Cornette, they’re just about perfect. If you want a good example of how good they are, they are actually just as fun to watch do a squash match as a title fight, because you know they’re just going to mess the jobbers up.
>>5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the >>Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler’s List, >>Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 >>movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and >>what needs inclusion? (i think 2001 DEFINITLY belongs, thats me >>though)
The American Film Institute is a bit of a joke, really. WizOfOz doesn’t belong there, neither does Schindler’s List. Good movies to be sure, but not top 10 all time good. Throw in Patton and the Shawshank Redemption and I’d like it more. Will Pulp Fiction or Fight Club end up in that list in 30 or 40 years?
>6. On the best day’s of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or >Shawn?
Shawn. Bret wrestled his way, and I can’t imagine he’d be willing or able to adjust his style the was Shawn has over the years.
>7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
Done right, I think that HIAC is actually a better concept (I find Wargames is almost too crazy- too much stuff going on at once.) That being said, they’ve neutered HIAC so UT/Edge will be remembered as the last “good” one.
>8. If Terry Funk retired in 89 after the I quit with Flair and never had his >ECW stint, would we REALLY consider him a legend nowadays or would >he be another old timer we barely recognize like Verne Gagne or Lou >Thesz?
Terry would be remembered pretty much the same way we remember Harley Race. The real question is: what happens to Foley’s career if Funk retired in 89?
>>9. Favorite Sting-Vader match?
The one where it’s Flair instead of Vader.
>>10. Ever seen AJ-Joe-Daniels from Unbreakable 05? If so what you ???>>think? Meltzer said its ***** and the best 3 way ever (better than >>WM20 even)
WM20 was the better match, but at least the TNA match made sense and they didn’t re-do it a month later for no reason.
Pulp Fiction might, but Fight Club won’t.
Pulp Fiction might not because it’s a pastiche of French New Wave films. It’s cool, and the dialogue is really good, but if you’re a big French New Wave fan it’s nothing new.
And I like Fight Club but top ten movies of all time? No way, not in this lifetime. I’d drop Schindler’s List and Vertigo and substitute LA Confidential and Psycho.
Honestly though, the Godfather is the only perfect movie I’ve ever seen. I get that Citizen Kane has all the technical advances going for it, but if that’s the case why not Birth of a Nation (the fact it’s horribly racist aside)?
I generally give Citizen Cane the benefit of the doubt in lists like that, if only for how amazingly well acted it is.
I think Joe, AJ and Daniels are great, and their Triple Threat was non-stop athleticism, but one thing always bugged me: no one ever did a plain old wrestling move. Everything had to be a crazy ROH move or a freaky counter or a killer ‘MMA’ strike. It got to the point where, if one guy prepped another guy for a simple vertical suplex, I KNEW the other guy would reverse it.
I put HBK ahead of Bret by a tiny, tiny margin. Hbk was more likely to whip out a five star match. On the other hand Bret was more consistent. I can’t comment on non TV stuff but as far as TV and PPV Hart always worked well with whoever. Despite his reputation for being able to drag the proverbial broomstick (or Sid take your pick) to a great match, he actually was much more likely than Bret to have a subpar match. One example is how he and Hennig just didn’t mesh.
Having to pick between HBK, Bret, Benoit, Angle, Flair, and Savage is like having to pick between your children. Your favorite depends on the day and your mood.
Can anyone name any decent Hogan matches (not including Japan since that is beyond the frame of reference for most of us) that haven’t been mentioned? Warrior, Savage, and Rock (although i didnt’ think it was good but I’m a hogan hater) are about all everyone mentions.
Final point: If pulp fiction winds up on any all time great list, that list is garbage. Most overrated movie ever.
Hogan had some decent pre WWF Title matches, probably most notably with Nick Bockwinkel. In the WWF he had pretty good matches with Greg Valentine and David Shultz and some decent brawls with Piper. He also had the famous SNME cage matches with Big Bossman and Paul Orndorff that were both really good. And, the Wrestlemania 7 match with Slaughter is pretty strong.
Of that group, I think his stuff with David Shultz (they had a great match on the 1st Coliseum Video Hulkamania tape) would probably be best received, but that cage matches are best known.
I always liked his WM 2 cage match with Bundy, and the SNME one they had later (which, if I remember, set up the return of Andre). Bundy was fun in the mid-80s.
Did Hulk ever actually wrestle Jake Roberts? I know that feud was teased, then aborted when Jake started stealing face heat.
1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i should say write)
“Nixonland” which came out last year is about how the liberals in
America blew it after their huge election victory in 1965 and handed
over Amierica to the law-and-order Republicans by 1972. (Nixon won
49 out of 50 states that year.)
2. Best Hogan match ever?
WWF @ Philadelphia, PA – Spectrum – August 4, 1984 (12,908)
WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned Greg Valentine with a
clothesline and the legdrop at 11:18
Hogan was just a really good worker/performer in this match and didn’t have to be THE HULK.
3. Demolition or Road Warriors?
Demolition!
4. Midnights or RocknRolls?
Midnights, but only Lane and Eaton. I didn’t care for Loveboy whoever.
5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler’s List, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and what needs inclusion? (i think 2001 DEFINITLY belongs, thats me though)
Citizen Kane is the best film ever made. THE END! I wouldn’t have included Vertigo. Jimmy Stewart was about ten years too old for the part and that really hurts the film in my opinion.
6. On the best day’s of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or Shawn?
Shawn
7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
I like the good ole Steel Cage match the best.
8. If Terry Funk retired in 89 after the I quit with Flair and never had his ECW stint, would we REALLY consider him a legend nowadays or would he be another old timer we barely recognize like Verne Gagne or Lou Thesz?
He’d be a legend! That run in 1989 MADE him one regardless of what he did afterwards.
9. Favorite Sting-Vader match?
Favorite? Great American Bash ‘92
Best? Starrcade ‘92
They also had four-star level matches at SuperBawl III, Fall Brawl ‘94, and Slamboree ‘94.
Whoops…um…out of Scott’s books….I like “Tonight…In this very ring” the best.
Best Hogan match is definitley Wrestlemania 6. The most perfectly booked face vs face match ever. Road Warriors >>>>>>Demolition, even though I don’t like either team that much. LOD were actually cool, wheras Demolition looked fruity. I think Bret and Shawn are both guilty of relying on certain moves and spots in every single match, but I have to give the edge to Shawn. He brings drama to the big matches, where I never get that feeling from Bret matches, outside of the submission match with Austin.
But in fairness to Bret, Shawn got that second run that he never did. Shawn would have been forgotten if his last match was in 1998, wheras Bret isn’t. Same goes for Terry Funk. Honestly, almost everybody from the NWA has been forgotten now by the casual fans, outside of Flair and maybe Dusty. Funk is probaly remembered more for being a crazy bastard towards the end of his career at this point.
I always thought Gone with the Wind was overrated. Same for Wizard of Oz. Vertigo is great, but I wouldn’t rank it that high. Raging Bull isn’t even Scorsese’s best film(it’s a tossup between Taxi Driver and Goodfellas). 2001 Space Odyssey should be there. But the biggest omision is Apocalypse Now. It’s not only my favorite film, but has really gained alot of steam over the years. Roger Ebert flat out called it one of the greatest films ever made, and it was voted the best film of the last 25 years not too long ago by Sight and Sound, which is considered the most “legit” list out there. If you have never seen it, be prepared for a fucking head trip. Still blows my mind every time I watch it.
Gone with the Wind and Wizard of Oz are voted that high because of the technical achievements with them. And I enjoy Taxi Driver and Godfellas more, but I think that Raging Bull is a bigger triumph in terms of filmmaking, editing, acting, sound design, etc.
I mentioned above, but I think that the Godfather is better than Apocalypse Now, which always feels just a tad bloated to me.
I am interested in your notion of the “bigger match feel” that makes the WMXX triple-threat better than Unbreakable’s… partially because I find that TNA’s product suffers because they are in limbo between being a large and small company. They dont have the Big Event show feeling of WWF/WCW heyday, nor the pressure cooker/smart arena feeling of ECW. They are sort of stuck in the middle.
Though I am a bit bias… as I think its big match feeling that has so many people crazy of HBK/UT from WM25.
I didn’t watch WM25 live, but I did download and watch the UT/Shawn match, and I really wasn’t all that impressed. Everyone was throwing stars at it and I just don’t get it. It was probably one of the better UT matches, but that’s not saying something. The part that really blew it for me were Shawn’s submission attempts, especially the figure 4 spot. I initially blamed Shawn, since he seems to half-ass the move anyways, but I recently saw someone else put it on UT (Punk, I think) and he did the same thing, with the straight leg on top. This drives me nuts because THERE IS NO WAY THE MOVE WOULD HURT AT ALL IF YOU APPLIED IT LIKE THAT. If UT is so old and banged up that he can’t take that move in anything even resembling the right way, don’t put it on him, OK?
Best Hogan match: I think the Hogan/Bockwinkel match on the Hulk DVD is really very excellent, although the screw job ending really hurts it.
7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
Well, its no Chamber of Horrors match – where you have to put one of your opponents on the “electric” chair and pull the lever to win. The 1991 HH is on WWE Classics on Demand right now. Clusterfuck for sure.
It starts out good enough, but when they lower the “chair of torture” (of course they couldn’t call it an electric chair, not that any of this makes any sense anyway), the guys have no more room to work and it becomes pointless.
Also, if you are keen eyed, you can see the “lever” is up, then down, then back up again before it’s finally pulled by Cactus.
Abdullah climbing the cage is wild though.
1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i should say write)
Lolita
2. Best Hogan match ever?
Hogan/Andre from pure spectacle, in a terms of a great HH style match I like either Hogan/Flair from Bash at The Beach 1994 or Hogan/Warrior at WrestleMania.
3. Demolition or Road Warriors?
I too missed the Road Warriors on the initial run, so Demolition was already above them in my eyes by default. Road Warriors were better workers though.
4. Midnights or RocknRolls?
Midnight Express all the way! Best theme music ever too.
5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler’s List, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and what needs inclusion? (i think 2001 DEFINITLY belongs, thats me though)
Chinatown should be up there.
6. On the best day’s of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or Shawn?
Overall I prefer Bret, but they are both off the page. They are equal as workers, but I think Bret was better on the mic. In fact, Bret had better mic skills and charisma then he got credit for due to it being a totally different style for it’s day, where Shawn really isn’t that great on the mic and more or less plays a character that is supposed to be charismatic. He gets over on his work though so it works, but if Shawn could wrestle like Shawn and talk like Jericho, he’d be the best ever.
7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
WarGames was great — I just wish we’d seen more of the good ones! Really there are just the two from 1987, one from 1989, one from 1991, and one from 1992 and that’s it for excellent ones. 1993, 1994, 1995, and 1998 stunk up the joint. 1996/1997 were decent though.
We need more ‘lightning rounds’ makes for some fascinating reading.
1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i should say write)
On the Road, Big Nowhere, LA Confidential
2. Best Hogan match ever?
Hogan v. Savage at WM 5, first match I remember seeing.
3. Demolition or Road Warriors?
-Road Warriors, they always seemed more badass to me.
4. Midnights or RocknRolls?
Never got to see much of either
5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler’s List, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and what needs inclusion? (i think 2001 DEFINITLY belongs, thats me though)
I’d drop Schindler’s List and Vertigo and sub in Godfather II and Psycho. I also think Godfather should be #1, I find no flaws with that movie. Great acting, great cinematography, great writing, great sound; it makes three hours fly by.
6. On the best day’s of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or Shawn?
Complex answer. At getting someone else over? Bret. I’m a bigger Bret fan but think Shawn has more of a legacy.
7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
It’s a great blowoff match for stable feuds, but I don’t think for singles feuds.
8. If Terry Funk retired in 89 after the I quit with Flair and never had his ECW stint, would we REALLY consider him a legend nowadays or would he be another old timer we barely recognize like Verne Gagne or Lou Thesz?
-I think he’s most remembered for WCW 1989, I’m sure his ECW and Japan stints would have been missed. As someone above pointed out, what would that have meant for Foley?
9. Favorite Sting-Vader match?
-Never got to catch this feud, was WWF exclusive at the time..
10. Ever seen AJ-Joe-Daniels from Unbreakable 05? If so what you think? Meltzer said its ***** and the best 3 way ever (better than WM20 even)
I liked Unbreakable 05, but it’s can’t touch WMXX. 20th Wrestlemania in MSG (so it had the big match feel), multiple stories being told, the right guy going over, and a great (until a few years ago) ending.
Cool post and great set of questions. Loved reading everyones answers so I guess i’ll throw in my own two cents.
1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i should say write)
Scott I really dug the Dungeon of Death, but Tonight in this very ring is also a good read. I hope you put out another book dude!
2. Best Hogan match ever?
I agree with Scott and everyone else that WM 6 was the shit. That might be the biggest match that ever happened in the history of pro wrestling, but then again I was at the height of my markdom when that happened. The great promos they cut before the match makes it that much cooler. However I think that Hogan vs. Slaughter match from WM 7 is probably his most underrated match. Forgetting about the dumb angle behind it, that was a pretty good brawl with some blood and Slaughter got his ass kicked. It was kind of a precursor to the WWE brawl style main events we used to get all the time.
3. Demolition or Road Warriors?
I didn’t really catch on to the Road Warriors until they came to the WWF but man I thought they were the shit back in the day with the huge spikes on the shoulders and the doomsday device finisher. Plus I loved Hawk’s promos. WELLLLLLLL…
4. Midnights or RocknRolls?
I couldn’t agree more with the guy who said Midnights cause of James E. Cornette. What a great heel team. And I have to go with the Stan Lane version.
5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler’s List, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and what needs inclusion?
I haven’t seen several of those movies so I don’t want to say they do or don’t belong but i’m one of those people who love Godfather 2 more than the first one (but of course you couldn’t have that sequel with the great first movie) so I think that should be in there, and Goodfellas is better than Raging Bull IMO, so I would swap those two. Also I absolutely loved Pulp Fiction. It is a great movie, that was so different at the time it came out, and told such an awesome story in a new way, and had excellent dialog. But man Bruce Willis gf in that movie almost ruins it for sure. I have to ffw through some of those scenes. (Blueberry pancakes…ugh get the fuck out of here you annoying bitch) But you gotta Christopher Walken telling the kid about having that watch up his ass!
6. On the best day’s of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or Shawn?
I say its Shawn hands down even though my top five all time matches are Bret matches (Bret v. Bulldog in wembly, Bret v. Owen at wmx, Bret v. Owen cage match, Bret v. Perfect summerslam and Bret Austin at WM13). But seriously Shawn has tore shit up for like 17 years. That dude has had so many crazy matches I could not even begin to make a list. And he got great matches out of stiffs like Nash and Sid. I think he was the best seller of all time. And the superkick is a great finisher. Also I think his character was way better than Brets. The 90’s version was a bad ass cocky heel who was like a better version of Pillmans loose cannon gimmick, and I like the shit he does now a lot too, like the JBL thing, and the vince feud etc. But seriously your not going wrong with either guy, Bret was amazing. Its like comparing Kobe vs. Lebron now a days. (btw its Kobe lol)
7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
I love the Survior Series matches. I love the elimination concept. Wargames was awesome but I never liked how it was one pinfall and the match was over. But overall I think the TLC matches have been the best gimmick matches. A bit of a spotfest but the right guys can make those matches look amazing.
8. If Terry Funk retired in 89 after the I quit with Flair and never had his ECW stint, would we REALLY consider him a legend nowadays or would he be another old timer we barely recognize like Verne Gagne or Lou Thesz?
I think Funk would have a way different legacy if he retired then. I don’t think he would be known as such a hardcore legend, but more as one of the great NWA heels. I know he was doing hardcore stuff then too, but those crazy ass ECW matches with Sabu and that chainsaw charlie shit really pigeonholed the dude as a hardcore guy. I think he would probally have a better legacy as a wrestler if he retired then but way less money.
9. Favorite Sting-Vader match?
Starrcade 92 baby! But that strap match is a close second.
10. Ever seen AJ-Joe-Daniels from Unbreakable 05? If so what you think? Meltzer said its ***** and the best 3 way ever (better than WM20 even)
I had never even heard of or seen that match until I read this question. Just watched it on youtube. Video quality was not great and it was broken into parts but I thought it was really good, but I prefer Benoits crowning moment more.
Okay I’ve been sending Scott these Lightning Round questions so here are my 2 cents:
1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i should say write)
There was some confusion because I didnt word it right, but I was referring to Scott’s books. DUNGEON OF DEATH is hands down my fav.
2. Best Hogan match ever?
No one mentioned it, but he had an awesome cage match with Flair at Havoc’94. Some other candidates: WM5, 6,7 and 18. His SNME with Bossman and Race. I also remeber a godd match with him and Savage on a Coliseum tape from 85-86. My fav is with Flair at BatB94
3. Demolition or Road Warriors?
In ring wise it’s Demos all the way. As far as historical importance its the Roadies
4. Midnights or RocknRolls?
Too close to call really, but the Lane/Eaton version wins out for me.
5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler’s List, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and what needs inclusion? (i think 2001 DEFINITLY belongs, thats me though)
like i said 2001 needs to be in there, otherwise everyone mentioned Godfather 2
6. On the best day’s of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or Shawn?
Shawn i think
7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
OF COURSE!!!
8. If Terry Funk retired in 89 after the I quit with Flair and never had his ECW stint, would we REALLY consider him a legend nowadays or would he be another old timer we barely recognize like Verne Gagne or Lou Thesz?
See i dont know. His ECW tenure and then his WWF chainsaw charlie stuff really made him different from all the other 70s stars like race and bockwinkle. I think he’d be known the same way his brother Dory is, a great wrestler from another time, who happened to go out on a high note in 89 with the flair classics.
9. Favorite Sting-Vader match?
SuperBrawl III strap match hands down. Seriously guys watch it again, its brutal
10. Ever seen AJ-Joe-Daniels from Unbreakable 05? If so what you think? Meltzer said its ***** and the best 3 way ever (better than WM20 even)
I’m the only one here who seems to think so(along with Meltz), but the TNA match is better than WM20. It’s got some insane pacing, the move set is out of this world, and those 3 guys got to main event a ppv for a midcard title, and really put themselves on the map as the best 3 workers in that company at the time. There isnt a dull moment, theres lots of psychology involving joe being undefeated and the other guys teaming on him, then fighting each other like brothers since they know each other so well. I’m excited to see how close they can get to that match at Turning Point next month
- I know that people think that the ‘King Of Cable’ final and the strap match were better, and maybe they actually are from a workrate standpoint. But the GAB 1992 match was just amazing to me personally from the standpoint that Sting was the top babyface in WCW and Vader just MASSACRED him and then pinned him clean in the middle of the ring. After a steady stream of Hulk Hogan’s glorified squashes and Horsemen run-ins over the years, this match just blew me away at the time. Plus, I never liked Sting anyhow, so that fact just added to the fun.
- Citizen Kane: Good, highly overrated but considering who complied the list not a surprise that it’s Number One.
The Godfather: The Best Movie Ever Made.
Casablanca: The Second Best Movie Ever Made.
Raging Bull: I thought Goodfellas was better, but again considering who complied the list, I’m not surprised this one ranked higher.
Singin’ in the Rain: Eh, On The Town was a better Gene Kelly movie, Mary Poppins was a better overall musical and The Sound Of Music is a better movie period. But everyone knows that scene, so it got the nod here.
Gone with the Wind: Another overrated, bloated mess and highly uncomfortable to watch today. But in terms of scope and cinematic achievement, it definitely belongs on the list.
Lawrence of Arabia: Never saw this one or ever really desired to, so can’t say either way.
Schindler’s List:Again, I know why it was picked and it definitely deserves recognition, but I think the understandable emotion reaction to the subject matter clouds people’s judgment when it comes to actually critiquing the film. Honestly, I can think of quite a few movies I’d place above ths one.
Vertigo: Rear Window was much better.
The Wizard of Oz: Another sentimental choice, but it’s probably the most beloved movie of all time and that’s quite an achievement in our Disneyfied world. And as hokey as the actual film is at times, there’s no denying that it’s incredibly well-made even by today’s standards.
Re: Bret vs. Shawn
They’re my two favorite wrestlers ever. To me, Bret has always been #1 and Shawn #2.
While I have always been a bigger fan of Bret, I will not criticize anyone’s choice of Shawn because he is undeniably awesome too. That said, I’m disheartened that the responses seem to be so one-sided towards Shawn. I feel like if this conversation happened in 1997 or 1998, Bret would have a lot more support. I want to make a few points that I feel people overlook…
The way the WWE currently operates is the exact opposite of the way wrestling has traditionally been run. Until Vince bought WCW, wrestling focused totally on the present. Don’t acknowledge the past and don’t acknowledge your competition. That has been completely flipped to the point that they now actually focus MORE on the past than the present. This gets lost on a lot of people but I’ve always thought it was ridiculous. Yeah, it’s awesome that they care about their history and they release cool DVD sets that old-school fans like us can appreciate. But it’s also the reason most of today’s storylines are about status and legends and who has the better television show or who the youngest up and coming star is or everyone’s place in history or other such nonsense.
It also influences the perception of the viewers. When you’re told how great Shawn Michaels is week after week for nearly a decade now, about how legendary he is, you’re going to start believing it. And I don’t mean they speak well of him because he’s a babyface and he’s up against a hated bad guy. I mean they jam his legacy down your throat because that’s what the show is about now. It’s not even a wrestling show anymore; it’s a show about a wrestling show. Everything revolves around status and everyone’s place on the card and in history. So the importance of the “legacy” of people like Shawn (and Undertaker and Flair) has been beaten into everyone’s psyche because he’s been with the company during this strange era that has seen the company employ this bizarre philosophy in which they care more about status, nostalgia and paying homage to the past than they do about the present.
This idea of so many wrestlers sticking with WWE (or any one company) for 10-20 years is another wrinkle that helps Shawn’s place in history. That was never a common thing like it’s becoming now. And it’s another reason things are so stale. When Bret stuck around for more than a decade, that was extremely rare. Now you’ve got upper-midcarders and main eventers alike- Big Show, Jericho, Kane, Edge, Hardy, HHH, Taker, Shawn, etc. coming out every week for 10 years now. 10 years is an eternity in wrestling. There used to be so much turnover with the roster. Now the same basic roster sticks around for 10-15 years. And I’m sure we’ll see that trend continue since they try to establish guys as main eventers by their mid-20s and there are no other major companies for anyone to go to.
When I was watching the send-off Ric Flair got, I was amazed. Nothing remotely like that would have happened before this decade. All I could think about as I watched it was how much Bret deserved something like that, especially compared to the way he went out. It would be nice if all the all-time greats from Andre, Hogan, Savage, Bret, Austin, etc. got something like that. But that’s just not how wrestling worked. Now it’s a completely different industry. Maybe HHH, Shawn, Taker, Cena, etc. will get a send-off like that someday too. But the point is, I believe the shift in the way the company now portrays things like this has had a major impact on the way newer and older fans alike perceive history. And in this case, I think it affects the way someone like Shawn, who has been around for this era is perceived as opposed to someone like Bret, who has been retired for almost 10 years now. I don’t think it makes for a very accurate picture.
Another major issue is the difference in the way the programs are structured. There are 12-16 PPVs and 52 weeks of live television with zero squash matches. Yeah, no kidding Michaels is going to add a ton of great matches to his resume. Take half those Raws and all those PPVs, and that’s the chance to have 40 high-profile matches per year. Wrestling just wasn’t like that 15 years ago. You’d have a few major matches each year, maybe a couple big time TV matches and a few Coliseum/MSG matches. That’s pretty much it. So the fact that Michaels has had 100 awesome matches since he’s come back is more a result of the times than anything else. Matt Hardy has probably also wrestled on more WWF/E PPVs than Hulk Hogan (total guess but it sounds right). You can’t compare eras as if the company was always structured that way. So the argument that this latest comeback has given Shawn more great matches than Bret doesn’t mean much.
I know you can’t totally discount the last 7 years Michaels has had but I don’t think it’s fair to factor it in a whole lot when comparing him to Bret. I’m sure a healthy, slightly younger Bret would have had a million awesome matches in an era like this too. And if we’re going to take their whole careers into account, what about all the Stampede stuff Bret did? Of course early 80s Stampede didn’t have Raw, and even if they did, I’m guessing they wouldn’t have been talking about legacies and historical status every two minutes.
To me it makes the most sense to compare Bret to Shawn during their initial WWF careers which overlapped. The Rockers didn’t come along much longer after the Hart Foundation finally found some success and Shawn messed up his back just a few months after Bret was screwed. We have a 10 year period where they both worked for the same company at the same time. That should be the era for comparison. It doesn’t make much sense to factor in the current era that barely even resembles pro wrestling.
I personally believe Bret was better. If asked to pit Shawn against anyone other than Bret, I would choose Shawn. But just remember that he strongly benefits from the way the current WWE judges and emphasizes history and status and he has the opportunity to wrestle in a ton of high-profile matches every year.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I mean, did you ever hear Flair and Steamboat talk about having ‘the greatest rivalry in wrestling history’ during their feud? Or Hulk Hogan or Bret Hart constantly talking about becoming a WWE Legend or a future Hall Of Famer or their supposed place in ‘history’? Instead of letting time and destiny dictate their places in history, the WWE is now seemingly trying to book people into legendary status.
They seem to do that the most with Triple H these days, but when you get down to the main details: what will Triple H be remembered for in the minds of the fans?
He won so many championships? He was in DX? Triple H may actually become the most manufactured legend in the history of the WWE.
All of this is key to why wrestling may not be the same. I know it is talked about often here, but for me, the last time I viewed Raw regularly was 2003. Okay, six-and-a-half years later. We still have HHH. We still have HBK. Kane, Edge, Jericho, Taker, we could go on.
I started watching wrestling at Wrestlemania VII. Fast-forward the same amount of time, you get Survivor Series 1997, Montreal. Hogan was long gone, as were Savage and Warrior. Bret and HBK, the main eventers in Montreal, were both tag wrestlers at Wrestlemania VII. Bulldog, Undertaker (who didn’t wrestle at SS 97) was anyone else even on the roster at Wrestlemania VII? There was just such turnover that there is not now.
Exactly. Wrestling has always been about progress and finding the “new big thing.” Not rehashing past eras or desperately placing the current show into a historical context. Business may have been down in the mid 90’s but that whole time, they still evolved. They focused on the present instead of the past and something finally clicked with Austin. They don’t evolve anymore.
It’s like everybody is feuding over their status or their place on the card and their place in history instead of an actual reason. It’s one big confusing mix of status and nostalgia. And it’s not even limited to just the wrestlers now. All that stuff about the “longest running episodic television show”… who cares??
When Foley and Edge were feuding a few years back, they actually argued on screen about who was a better transitional champion. People ripped on the lame Edge/Booker T shampoo feud, but to me all the legend/history crap is far worse.
I couldn’t agree more with that Brain; great insight. I used to think WWF was a little disrespectful of its legends in the 80s and 90s but looking back, it was much better than the current situation where there is so much emphasis on history. The mid-90s may have been a dark period in the WWF but at least they were solely focused on the present.
I think Shawn will be considered the greatest through a combination of the fact that he’s a terrific wrestler and he’s managed to play a key role in THE huge company for almost two decades, including the past 7 years when (like you say) he can put on a great match every week. That’s why it’s probably better to talk about the greatest wrestlers in terms of their peak (and for me it’s Kurt Angle with Bret a very very close second).
But I could certainly do without commentators talking about ‘future Hall of Famers’ and John Cena giving promos about Cena-Orton being THE rivalry and Cena-HHH being this generation’s Hogan-Andre or Austin-Rock. Just put on a good show – fans will tell you what they think is legendary.
Glad to see there are a few that agree. It’s true, what you say- in one way it’s sad that for all those years in wrestling, big stars got no respect and were chewed up and spit out at the end. It’s a nice gesture that they treated Flair so well on the way out. So for the big stars like that, it’s actually nice. And all the perks like the great DVD sets make it nice for old-school fans. Unfortunately, it makes for an awful product.
Totally agree with your last paragraph there. And you mentioned Hogan-Andre… I feel like Cena has tried to reenact the famous staredown about ten times now. No originality anymore.
On another note, is anyone bothered by Randy Orton’s constant staring? All he does is stare. That doesn’t make you a good heel; it just makes you boring. Or the fact that 50% of matches now end with the participants staring each other down as one backs his way up the ramp? Off-topic, I know, just something that I haven’t had a chance to get off my chest.
I think it’s the “on his best day” part of the question that is causing such a one-sided response for Shawn.
On his best day, Shawn was a little bit better than Bret, no doubt.
But overall, I would say Bret’s body of work is far more consistent, with a longer run as a top-to-tippy-top guy and a much longer list of very-good to great matches for Bret.
Indeed “on his best day” tips the scales towards Shawn. Bret Hart was virtually bred to become a professional wrestler, and he was a great thoroughbred at that. But Shawn Michaels was a prodigy the likes of which come around once a generation at best. I hope the Survivor Series match sets the stage for a heel turn, or even a quasi heel turn like he did with Hogan. That Montreal promo he did in the lead up to that match is still one of the greatest things I’ve ever seen, and shows that he can be a great heel even when he’s not all drugged up:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2clf4_shawn-michaels-speech-wwe-raw-08150_sport
Bret was the hardest working professional wrestler in the business. Shawn was (is) the best.
Totally agree. And I think this current fetishizing of legendary status has hurt Randy Savage and his greatest of all time consideration.
Imagine Savage and Hogan flipped roles post-WCW, is there any question we’re considering Savage the Greatest of All-Time? Did Savage ever really embarrass himself? He could talk, he could wrestle, he drew like Hogan and wrestled like Flair.
sorry, but I think a top10 movie list without Star Wars just isn’t right.
All six of ‘em?
Sure! Just throw in 4 of the better Star Trek movies, and you’ve got a great top 10!
People who think Citizen Kane is overrated are overrated as human beings!
Citizen Kane is the equivalent of an A.J. Styles match: nice to look at, and there’s no denying the talent and artistry involved. But once you get past the surface, there’s just not a lot of substance:
- The acting, for the most part, was fairly mediocre and at times outright hammy. And nearly every character was portrayed as either a broad caricature or a cartoony metaphor, which made it impossible to relate to them in any meaningful way.
- The actual plot was thin as hell and certainly not enough to sustain a two-hour film. I’m guessing that Welles was hoping that people would be too dazzled by his technical achievements to notice, and it worked. At the risk of starting a riot, I feel the same way about the original Star Wars.
- Once the movie was done, I felt no emotional connection whatsoever to the story or any character involved in the story, and to me the ‘greatest movie of all-time’ should affect you on some level emotionally. I appreciated the film for the directorial effort and the ambition involved, but it wasn’t something I ever needed to see again. Compare that to The Godfather and Casablanca, where I actually forgot at points that I was watching a movie and actively rooted for Rick Blaine and Michael Corleone. I watched both Kane and Casablanca for the first time during a film studies class in college, and while people enjoyed Kane they were truly engrossed by Casablanca and were actually applauding and cheering and gasping throughout. And for the most part, these were lazy pothead slackers looking for an easy ‘A’ and a place to sleep it off in the morning.
Part of the problem may very well be that much like a much-touted ‘five-star’ wrestling match, the more people try to sell you on it, the more likely you are to notice the flaws. I’m sure if people tried hard enough, they’d find problems with all of the films on the AFI’s list. And I’m not saying Kane isn’t a great film. I just don’t think it’s Number One with a bullet.
Totally agree. I was a film major and in one of my early film studies classes I got into it with a professor over why the Godfather was better. The only argument he couldn’t counter was, “point me to the embarrassingly dated musical number in the Godfather?”
I always dug the rock-paper-scissors dynamic going on in the TNA match:
AJ Styles tends to get the better of Christopher Daniels.
Christopher Daniels tends to get the better of Samoa Joe.
Samoa Joe tends to get the better of AJ Styles.
It’s very subtle, but it even plays through to the finish: Daniels outsmarts Joe and eliminates him from the ring. That leaves Daniels alone with Styles. Styles gets the win.
I couldn’t disagree with you more on Citizen Kane. Orson Welles’ performances is one of the top five in cinema history. Substance? There’s a TON of stuff going on in each scene. It’s number with a silver bullet and then some. No emotional connection? OH MY GOD! I’m right there with Kane and Susan Alexander from start to finish. You might not have the Charles Foster Kane, Richard Nixon, Jet Rink personality, but I do. So, I can connect with him in HUGE way. To each his own I guess, but Kane has NO equal.
1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i should say write)
I’m ashamed to admit that I haven’t read one yet. For someone just starting off, which book would you recommend first?
2. Best Hogan match ever?
Yeah, Hogan vs Warrior from WM6.
3. Demolition or Road Warriors?
Road Warriors. Demolition were better workers, but just didn’t have the aura of the Warrior (Powers of Pain are, of course, a distant third)
4. Midnights or RocknRolls?
Midnights. Much more versatile, and had Cornette to talk for them. Though I would give RnR the nod over both the Original Midnight Express or the New Midnight Express.
5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler’s List, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and what needs inclusion? (i think 2001 DEFINITLY belongs, thats me though)
The Grapes of Wrath is still my all-time favorite movie, and deserves a top-ten spot.
6. On the best day’s of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or Shawn?
Shawn.
7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
Sorry, TLC gets the nod from me.
8. If Terry Funk retired in 89 after the I quit with Flair and never had his ECW stint, would we REALLY consider him a legend nowadays or would he be another old timer we barely recognize like Verne Gagne or Lou Thesz?
We barely recognize Dory Funk these days, so yeah, the 90’s exposure definitely kept him fresh. I doubt that people will talk about him 20 years from now though.
9. Favorite Sting-Vader match?
King of Cable finals.
10. Ever seen AJ-Joe-Daniels from Unbreakable 05? If so what you think? Meltzer said its ***** and the best 3 way ever (better than WM20 even)
Generally I think that X-way singles matches (where X>2) suck, but the hypothetical imaginary affair at WM20 was definitely the best of the bunch.
I’m not going to say it’s anywhere near the top 10 of all-time but in terms of movies with which I have an emotional connection no matter how many times I watch it, I’ll stand up for “Donnie Darko.”
1. Of all you books, which is YOUR personal favorite to read? (or i should say write)
Tonight in this very Ring
2. Best Hogan match ever?
Hogan vs. Savage–Wrestlemania V is the first thing that comes to mind. I also like Hogan vs. Flair–Bash at the beach ‘94 and Hogan vs. Hansen–Japan 1990
3. Demolition or Road Warriors?
Demolition are the better workers, Road Warriors are the more legendary team. I used to be bigger fans of the Road Warriors growing up, but now appreciate Demolition much more. Especially after watching their shoot interview. Ax and Smash ruled it!
4. Midnights or RocknRolls?
Midnights (Lane & Eaton version)
5. Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Casablanca, Raging Bull, Singin in the Rain, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler’s List, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz. These are the American Film Institue top 10 movies all time. Agree with the choices? If not what needs to go and what needs inclusion? (i think 2001 DEFINITLY belongs, thats me though)
The Godfather should be # 1, Casablanca is 1A. Singin in the Rain should be removed, Goodfellas is better than Raging Bull, Star Wars should be in the top 10 (even though Empire Strikes back is the best of the series), Lawrence of Arabia is really, really boring and should not be in the top 10 either. Godfather part II should be in the top 10. Pulp Fiction should be in the top 10 as well. And for the record, Jaws is my favorite movie.
6. On the best day’s of their lives, whose a better worker Bret or Shawn?
Shawn is the better worker, especially since his comeback in 2002.
7. Isnt wargames the greatest gimmick match ever?
War Games rules if done right. 1987, 1989, 1991, and 1992 versions are all *****. Ok, well 1989 is more like **** 1/4–*****1/2, but still. I also like The Royal Rumble and OLD SCHOOL Survivor Series.
8. If Terry Funk retired in 89 after the I quit with Flair and never had his ECW stint, would we REALLY consider him a legend nowadays or would he be another old timer we barely recognize like Verne Gagne or Lou Thesz?
I think he’d be fondly remembered anyways, but coming back and doing everything else, really cemented his legacy and he’ll never be forgotten.
9. Favorite Sting-Vader match?
Bash ‘92 hands down. I also really like the strap match from Super brawl III, but the Bash was awesome. It was Vader time that day all day.
10. Ever seen AJ-Joe-Daniels from Unbreakable 05? If so what you think? Meltzer said its ***** and the best 3 way ever (better than WM20 even)
WrestleMania is better for the impact of the moment, although it has soured on me now for obvious reasons, still one of the best matches of all time. although this makes me want to go back and watch Unbreakable again.