Princess here and a little surprised no one's talking about UFC 100.
My MMA knowledge is novice at best and I've only seen a couple UFC cards with mixed company (and opinions). I will say that this was the first time I made it a POINT to see a UFC card and that was thanks in part to a terrific "Countdown" show that put everything on the table.
And while it was enjoyable at times, it didn't live up to the hype and I don't know that it could have.
For me it took about 20 seconds to hate Michael Bisping and Dan Henderson's "silent assassin" ways made me hate Bisping even more. So I wanted Henderson to really kick this guy's ass and in true form I completely marked out with the follow up punch after he knocked Bisping out. It was pretty much what everyone outside of Britian wanted to see. On the bad end this was an obvious mismatch as Bisping didn't have the experience against top-notch opponents. I mean I've heard of Rashad Evans, and I think he lost that fight, but really he had no business fighting a machine like Dan Henderson. Still I doubt too many tears were shed for him.
That was the high point for me. The GSP fight started when the food came to our table and I was way more into my husband's pot stickers than the fight. I'm still pissed I didn't order those myself. It was like watching a Floyd Mayweather fight where he outclasses the guy he's facing but really has no interest in beating him up. That was GSP, he knew he had Alves from the word go but he seems like a genuinely nice fellow who didn't want to discourage his opponent from trying harder next time.
The Lesnar fight and post-match confused me. "Countdown" had Lesnar going a face route. Between that show and his All-Access it was hard not to like Brock. He's a good country boy. Drives a regular little car, just wants to compete and earn respect in a sport that people had treated him like a joke because he was coming from pro wrestling. And Frank Mir acted like such a dick, making fun of Brock's lack of training and really overrating the intricate nature of his skill set. I don't know about you guys but I sort of looked at Brock as the sentimental underdog and was happy he served Mir's lunch.
Then he goes all mega-heel and I'm like "what the fuck man?" I didn't see it coming. I mean I guess it worked but it really only works if there's a good crop of opponents for him to face. Is there? You guys tell me.
BTW, my computer is still fucked six ways from Sunday but I'll be back on the SmackDown train this weekend. I have a lot of catching up to do and I might throw a surprising wrench into the format 
.
“Then he goes all mega-heel and I’m like “what the fuck man?” I didn’t see it coming. I mean I guess it worked but it really only works if there’s a good crop of opponents for him to face. Is there? You guys tell me. ”
You’re watching from the perspective of a wrestling fan, so the Brock / Mir interactions came off as though Brock was playing a face role. But to the hardcore MMA fans – those who filled the arena on Saturday – Mir is defending their honour against a fake pro wrestler, and they’re still in denial that Brock’s as good as he is (the ESPN MMA blog, from Sherdog, basically gave Brock no chance in hell because MMA is a “science.”) They were booing Brock all night, and he’s reacting to them.
Brock was cheered wildly in the Toronto bar I was watching it in, because, well, Canadian MMA fans are almost universally current or former wrestling fans and “get it.” It’s no coincidence that he’s almost as big a PPV draw in Canada as GSP.
This isn’t really accurate, sounds like another pro wrestling analysis of MMA.
Mir’s not defending anyone’s honor, God help us if we couldn’t do better than him anyway. That’s just pro wrestling thinking applied to MMA. Brock beat the heavyweight champion, so why exactly would MMA fans feel like their honor is at stake? There might have been some truth to this when Brock was put in the main event of his first UFC fight (MMA fans justly felt that he hadn’t earned it). But after rolling over Herring and knocking out Couture, I think we all have come to terms with the fact that Lesnar is legit.
Most MMA fans will tell you Mir is pretty much a has-been, and mostly lucked his way into the main event of the biggest UFC show ever (getting a green Lesnar last year and still almost getting smashed, then knocking out Nogueira who was a shell of himself due to a staph infection in December). For proof, just look at the lines in Vegas. Brock opened as, and remained, a moderate favorite, despite fighting a guy that already beat him. What does that tell you about the level of respect MMA fans have for Brock?
So you read the blog of a guy who favored Mir. If you looked around, you would probably find two or three blogs that favored Lesnar for every one Mir. I have no idea why Brock did that interview, I guess he’s still in pro wrestling mode. I always thought people booed Brock because he just isn’t very likable.
And, to answer your question Princess, there are some quality heavyweights in the UFC right now but Brock will be favored against all of them. There would be money putting him against Nog, Couture again, maybe a rubber match against Mir down the line (although I suspect Mir will fall off the face of the earth now), and there are a few up and comers like Carwin and Velazquez (although Brock is a terrible matchup for both of them).
Fedor is the only guy out there that would be favored against Brock.
“So you read the blog of a guy who favored Mir.”
It wasn’t the blog of “some guy.” It was ESPN’s coverage of the show (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=mma). Some selected quotes:
“There’s a lot of fuss made about Lesnar’s strength and bulldozer style, but I really have my doubts that A). He’s learned enough in three years to avoid a submission from Mir and B). Any one of his limbs are stronger than Mir’s entire body. Fighting is a science: Mir holds an advanced degree, and Lesnar is still dissecting frogs.”
“I see Lesnar’s chances as slim and none in this fight. Consider: the same judgment that selected his chest tattoo is the same judgment he uses in a fight.”
Again, not some guy’s blog. ESPN. Worldwide Leader, etc. Just a bit more credibility than some YouTube shooter, you know? And it’s not “well, Mir is favoured.” It’s the Brock had no chance whatsoever to win. Apparently that convincing hasn’t quite gotten through to everyone.
Listen, Princess’ reaction that Lesnar came across as the face in the buildup special was a pretty common one amongst wrestling fans. Maybe not ALL the fans were booing Brock because of the pro wrestling connection – after all, Mir’s the hometown boy in Vegas and Brock got a much more positive reaction at home in Minneapolis. The catch here is that this crowd was the hardest of the hardcore – tickets were sold exclusively to fan club members and not to the general public (who may have scalped them, but I personally doubt it), whereas the Minnesota show wasn’t even sold out and drew a far more casual crowd (with a ton of Canadians there to watch GSP / Fitch). Maybe people boo the bigger guy (AKA the Tim Sylvia theory of unlikeable fighters, per Joe Rogan in Undisputed). But there’s an undeniable negative connection between the Vegas crowd specifically and Brock being booed for being a pro wrestler.
(Oh, and he wasn’t the main event of his first show. Sylvia / Nog was, and not even in the Fitch sense.)
Of course it’s a pro wrestling analysis – all UFC (and MMA in North America, really) is IS pro wrestling, but with non-determined results. The marketing is the same, the matchmaking is the same, the TV presentation is virtually identical, the promotional organisation is the same (witness the sponsorship and video game kerfufles over the last week). If you look at it with a mindset built off following baseball / hockey / football / basketball, you’ll miss the point entirely (which is why so much mainstream coverage suffers). And covering it like boxing also doesn’t make much sense, because experience doesn’t really count as much as natural athletic talent… with the exception of Couture, of course.
You still just read one opinion. Like I said, if you had read many MMA websites, you would have seen that most people picked Lesnar. It’s not even ESPN’s content you were reading, I don’t see how that one opinion rules over all others.
And, while Nog/Sylvia went on last, Brock/Mir was clearly the focus of all the promotional materials. You can spin it however you want, but the card was promoted around Lesnar, which means he was in the main event.
All MMA is pro wrestling? What?? How can you say the matchmaking is the same when pro wrestling is fixed? Isn’t that a fundamental difference? And the UFC’s presentation mimics boxing more closely than pro wrestling.
The UFC’s promotional model is actual similar to pro wrestling (as opposed to boxing), so you are right about one thing. In general though, I think this whole discussion is pro wrestling fans being self-important. And hey, I’m a life-long pro wrestling fan, so I’m not trying to put anyone down. But you’ll find that “hardcore” MMA fans really try to think about pro wrestling as little as possible…
When mainstream coverage of MMA suffers, it is because the media outlets do a poor job. That’s really all there is to it. There’s no fundamental misunderstanding, it’s laziness and ineptitude on their part. That’s why I got a kick out of your “but it’s not just any media outlet, it’s ESPN!” spiel.
It’s the pro-wrestling style of hype, I think is the point being driven.
Dana White always says that his favorite fight to promote is two guys that legitimately hate each other, like Ortiz/Shamrock, Ortiz/Liddell, Ortiz/him… and so on. (Everyone hates Tito, I’ve noticed. Though after his TUF I’m really wondering why.) Where there’s something more than just “That guy has a belt and I want it.”
Thing is, this has been true in boxing for years — Tyson/Holyfield is a prime example. As a matter of fact, boxing NEEDS a heel as awesome as Tyson was, only no one has the personality in the Heavyweight ranks to pull it off.
I thought Brock went heel because the crowd was hating on him during the fight. I only caught the fight Sunday morning but the crowd was all over them for laying around and as Brock was knocking him out, they were chanting “Stand Them Up!”
And I believe Brock was booed the last time he fought in Vegas, as opposed to the hero’s welcome he got in Minnesota. I think it’s natural for him to be the bad guy.
It does amuse me that MMA writers and fans (though moreso the writers who cover it) so desperately want MMA to be a mainstream, accepted sport…and the guy making all the money is a guy who is famous for being a pro wrestler and doing old pro wrestling tricks to get heat and notoriety for the sport. Regardless…Brock=MONEY.
Don’t forget about how those same MMA writers said that no one in their right mind would want to watch Tito Ortiz fight Ken Shamrock, and then that fight became the most-watched in UFC’s history. They *really* don’t get that there’s a big gap between what they think MMA is and what it really is, at least in terms of the general zeitgeist.
It’s like those depressing video game fans who can’t figure out why people love the Wii so much.
“They *really* don’t get that there’s a big gap between what they think MMA is and what it really is, at least in terms of the general zeitgeist.”
Huh, that almost sounds like smart wrestling fans.
Coor Lite must love Brock
BUD LITE DOESN’T PAY HIM!!
Too bad Dana can’t put that on a T-shirt, because it’d be their version of Austin 3:16.
I don’t see what the big deal is about Lesnar’s post-match comments, ex-WWE or not. Dana White has rebuked him in public but I bet privately he couldn’t have been happier with Brock.
Besides, we’ve seen much worse in boxing. I recall Mike Tyson once saying he wanted to rip out Lennox Lewis’ heart and eat his children.
I don’t follow Dana White that much but isn’t he just doing a Vince McMahon impression? Every clip I’ve seen of him, he’s pushing something and giving a promo. Wasn’t he going to fight Tito Ortiz at some point?
White is trying to go mainstream now because he’s trying to get the big-time sponsors, he likes the free publicity from accepted sites like ESPN.com and he keeps saying how he wants Brock to fight on free TV, get on network TV, etc. Again, it’s like Vince, he’s so desperate to not have MMA described as niche sport and get universal approval.
First…Mike Tyson isn’t exactly a stable example to use. Let’s be serious. Muhammad Ali was wonderful at using the verbal game to talk up his fights.
Like I said after seeing that E-60 piece on Dana White. I think a lto fo his story is full of shit….like the part about him running from the mob and going to Las Vegas…yeah because that’s a real easy place to avoid the mob. He’s Vanilla Ice to me. He’s a guy who’s done well for himself and is trying to create some backstory to his life to develop an aura. Soon we’ll hear about Suge Knight hanging him out of a window and demanding more money for Kimbo Slice.
Who are you to doubt El Dana?
The only thing keeping Lesner from being dead man walking after his crap at UFC 100 is that, his asshole gimmick (and his WWE fame/notoriety) is the only thing seperating him from the masses of all but literally faceless, interchangable gym bunnies that Dana White has on his payroll.
And even then, as soon as Dana can find some guy who can beat Brock and do it at a major event, he’ll have no further use for Lesner, sending Brock back to the WWE with his tail between his legs, and be jobbed out to Orton, Cena, and HHH in that order.
That’s a … unique opinion, as JR might say.
Ill-thought-out, ridiculous, but unique.
You seem to have all the answers, so let me ask you this question:
If Brock is riding his WWE fame/notoriety, how come his UFC fights (and GSP’s, and others) completely smash WWE PPV’s in terms of buyrates? Since November, the UFC has done 4 PPV’s that hit or approached 1 million buys (Brock was in 2 of them). Correct me if I’m wrong, but WWE only sniffs that number for Wrestlemania. So what kind of fuzzy math leads you to your conclusion?
If I told my friends (who don’t watch wwe anymore not since 2001) that Steve Austin was fighting in UFC… they’d totally watch out of pure curiousity.
Brock couldn’t cut a promo for shit in pro wrestling, when did this guy become such a great talker all of a sudden? If he had done something like this they could’ve found the right angle to market the guy from and made more money off him.
Actually, Brock’s promo skills greatly improved over his 2 years in WWE. In his feud with Guerrero in early 2004, his promo work was excellent. That’s why it was such a pity that he left when he did because he was just becoming the total package.
“The only thing keeping Lesner from being dead man walking after his crap at UFC 100 is that, his asshole gimmick (and his WWE fame/notoriety) is the only thing seperating him from the masses of all but literally faceless, interchangable gym bunnies that Dana White has on his payroll.”
Wait, let me see if I’ve got this straight…what you’re saying is that the only reason that Lesnar wasn’t shitcanned after the fight (for being an asshole), is the fact that he’s an asshole? I can’t remember the last time I read something with less logic behind it.
“If Brock is riding his WWE fame/notoriety, how come his UFC fights (and GSP’s, and others) completely smash WWE PPV’s in terms of buyrates?”
Because Dana has succeeded in transitioning pro wrestling fans, particularly older ones, into buying UFC shows? It’s not really that difficult to figure out. Why do you think he comped Austin / Taker / JBL / Angle ringside seats at Brock’s debut? He wanted to convince wrestling fans that they should shift over, and the similar storytelling means that fans easily make the transition.
That and the WWE’s booking has been terrible (well, outside of recent Smackdowns) since the HHH / Batista feud four years ago. If they were actually telling good stories rather than having their writing staff run over by Vince every time they tried to build something, they’d be doing much better, buyrate-wise.
So the comparison is basically WWE-style matchbuilding done to near perfection compared to WCW-style matchbuilding done to please an increasingly out-of-touch owner. Geez, why do you think UFC is killing them?
Umm, UFC has been doing huge PPV buys going back to 2007. Sure, the buys are bigger now and i’m sure Brock has had an impact; but the sport has also been growing by leaps and bounds.
At the end of the day, the casual fan will prefer a shoot sport that is well presented over pro wrestling. The fact that now you have a cross over star, yes it brings some of the wrestling fans over and it has probably sped up the process; but UFC was going to be doing huge buys sooner or later with Lesnar or not.
In fact, check out this article from 2006.
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=2585&zoneid=3
WWE wishes they could do these numbers NOW.
“Geez, why do you think UFC is killing them?”
Because people stopped watching wrestling nine years ago and UFC entertains them more.
Pro wrestling will always have its place in entertainment, but everything evolves. People prefer the gritty, brutal nature of UFC compared to the cartoony soap opera of the WWE. The shit that happens in the octagon is authentic. I, for one, think that Dana White is working everyone by acting outraged over Lesnar’s post-match antics.
And wrestling fans should accept the reality that UFC is here to stay. It has nothing to do with how the WWE books its shows; that’s fucking retarded.
No, you totally missed my point. How do you do 1 million buys by luring away 200k pro wrestling fans? The “pro wrestling fans are buying it” theory doesn’t account for enough buys.
You’re missing the point…the WWE used to do a lot more than 200k per pay-per-view. The WWE lost those fans….there were a lot more people watching Raw/SmackDown and buying PPVs in 2002 than there are now.
Didn’t you see when Trump popped a rating and it was the biggest rating since 2002? When Brock debuted, Raw was still doing 5s each week.
It is possible that viewers just simply go away. They don’t necessarily transfer to another sport. Combine WCW and WWF in 2001 and compare that to 1 year later and the ratings were way down. It’s not like the bulk of viewers that used to watch WCW went to watch the NFL or something else.
I don’t think anyone can deny that there is a number of UFC ppv buyers now that were WWE ppv buyers; but I think the truth lies more in the fact that the WWE product has been declining since 2001.
I still hold that if the Invasion would’ve been handled properly, i.e. Vince shelling out the money to bring in the real WCW stars, that the overall viewership for the E would’ve held more steady over the years. They blew it and along with a lot of other factors, they are where they are now.
Trump popping a one week rating does not = ppv buys. I chalk that up to curiosity or maybe some old fans really thought they were going to do a major overhaul to RAW as we all know it needs it badly.
I think the point was Brock’s PPV numbers are inflated by curious wrestling fans. It’s obvious the UFC ppvs have been doing really good numbers and there’s a huge core of MMA fans. But when Brock fights, that number gets pushed up by 100-200K.
I don’t think WWE has lost all its fans to UFC but it would surprise me if many of the teenagers who grew up on the Attitude era are now UFC fans. It’s not like they chose UFC over WWE…they stopped watching WWE, then UFC came along.
Well, the WWE has figured out how to contend against the UFC: Seth Green.
just wanted to chime in on how NOT cool it was of Henderson to take that last lunging shot on an unconscious Bisping. Equal in measure to Babalu not releasing his choke on David Heath. An egregious lack of sportsmanship, something uncommon from Henderson, but disgusting nonetheless. Hendo knew Bisping was out, and he very well could’ve have seriously injured his jaw, spine, or brain. Trash-talk, disrespect; that stuff is all hype to sell the fight. There is no excuse for Henderson’s classless display.
Brock is just trying to sell tickets, no more no less.
Finally someone brought this up. I couldn’t agree more on the Hendo thing. First of, I thought Bispin acted like a douche and needed his mouth shut. But, what Hendo did was not only more embarrassing (IMO) than any post match antics by Lesnar; he could’ve seriously hurt Bispin bad. Princess, i can’t believe you and so many other people would “mark” out on that. Sad.
Yeah, I can’t for the life of me figure out why dropping a punch on someone that’s unconscious is worthy of “marking out.” It was the ultimate chickenshit move. You beat him; move on. What that guy did was downright disturbing.
Had Henderson severely injured Bispin (and Hendo’s lucky he didn’t. It’s not out of the realm of possibility that he could have killed him with that punch) then Brock’s post-match antics wouldn’t be talked about. Everyone wants to portray MMA as some sort of bloodsport and there would have been the perfect example to trumpet.
Until someone stops you you didn’t win. I don’t see what he did wrong.
Two rules in any sort of shoot fight whether its boxing or MMA or kickboxing or anything.
1) Always protect yourself
2) Never stop atacking until the referee steps in.
These guys are in the hurt game. That’s part of the deal. Blame the official but not the combatant. Henderson did exactly what he’s trained to do.
It was clear and obvious that Bispin was out cold. The official had no chance to stop that hit. If you are comfortable with Hendo taking that final shot, who am I to tell you you’re wrong? I just felt very uneasy having seen thousands of fights and having trained myself for awhile.
I totally understand. My feeling is that how is this one punch any more dangerous than landing a dozen hammer fists to someone who is prone and can barely protect themselves.
Being married to a former college football player and being the daughter of a former NFL player, I know the one creed that any athlete from a combat sport lives by:
Play until the whistle or bell or until your stopped. Whatever.
Point being it’s not up to the combatant to police himself. This isn’t a street fight. That what the officials are for. As long as follow-up punches are legal, he did the right thing.
My feeling is, given Henderson’s experience, if he wanted to kill Bisping with a shot on the ground, he probably could have.
Also why are follow up punches after a knockdown legal? If you go by the “boxing” rules it’s a knockdown and a count with a point being taken off the judge’s card. But MMA doesn’t want to be boxing.
So wouldn’t the rules be better served to protect all but outlawing follow up punches after a knockdown and the only way someone can land punches on the ground is with a legal takedown?
“So wouldn’t the rules be better served to protect all but outlawing follow up punches after a knockdown and the only way someone can land punches on the ground is with a legal takedown?”
Excellent point and I agree with you Princess.
It’s happened in literally hundreds of fights, and there’s nothing more or less wrong about Hendo’s attack here than his one against Wand in PRIDE or Cro Cop’s assault on Dos Caras or, for that matter, almost any of Wanderlei’s wins in PRIDE, where he tried to stomp Kondo’s head in, HELD RAMPAGE UP to make him take more punishment, etc.
It’s part of the fight game, and the ref was out of position, so Hendo did his job. What if Bisping had recovered, would people have argued about an early stoppage?
Bisping has been humbled, and hopefully has learned his lesson.
Is it pretty? No. Is it ethical? Depends. Is it part of the sport? Absolutely.
Yeah, if Hendo had kept his mouth shut, nobody would have said anything. It was the notion that he did it on purpose.
“Equal in measure”? Not quite. The ref was trying to pull Babalu off Heath, and Babalu was still not releasing the choke. This is similar in measure to Rampage still pummeling Wandy while the ref was pulling him off. The ref had not gotten to Hendo by the time that second shot landed, so it is not EQUAL in measure. It was unnecessary, but not equal. However, in Hendo’s defense, look at Koscheck’s last loss where he went down and didn’t eat a final shot but recovered as soon as his head hit the mat. There was a similar situation, but because the other guy didn’t land a Hendo, Koscheck was able to (justifiably IMO) argue that he deserved a chance to recover.
Off topic but I actually had a question. I picked up the tag team DVD a day early (Wal Mart broke street, again) and I was curious if the Steiners got in any trouble for shooting on the japs in their match.
It’s pretty sick stuff. Watch for Scott’s unprotected pump-handle slam on Hase. Then he gets his comeuppances when he tries to sandbag a DDT and instead Sasaki does an unprotected neckbreaker that Steiner did NOT see coming and he takes the bump off of Sasaki’s bicep. Cringe worthy for sure.
Glad people are picking up on Henderson’s forearm SMASH after the KO. It was disgraceful imo. He admitted afterwards he knew that Bisping was out, so by doing that he’s showing that he’s got no resepct, and he gives ammunition to people calling UFC out. It was a cunts trick imo. Almost makes me want to bulk up, spend 3 years n the gym training and then hit him from behind
I fall on the side of condemning Hendo for this one. As was previously mentioned, it’s mostly because he admitted that he knew Bisping was knocked out, so the “you’ve got to keep attacking him because you don’t know if he’s finished or not” argument goes out the window for this one.
“Two rules in any sort of shoot fight whether its boxing or MMA or kickboxing or anything.
1) Always protect yourself
2) Never stop atacking until the referee steps in.”
As a follow-up to my previous comment, I think the second “rule” here is dependent on the situation. If the guy is clearly, absolutely, 100% done, I think it’s completely wrong to hit him again just because you can, but it’s something that can be argued all day. It’s just one opinion against another.
I do think that Hendo’s admitting that he knew Bisping was outcold makes the UFC look bad a lot more than anything Brock said or did. I’m not saying that I look at the UFC as any worse (I don’t), but it’s the perfect ammunition for those who feel it’s too barbaric and vicious.