This question was inspired by your Flair Legacy post. I noticed that some commenters don't like Flair because of his personal life and how he may have treated others. I've always wondered how learning about a wrestler's personal life/backstage gossip affect how you think about them and their legacies? Does knowing that HBK was a jerk in the 90s affect how you feel about him as a performer? How about Hogan being a jackass? Jake Roberts and Scott Hall's personal demons? Randy Orton's various outbursts? HHH? I could go on just listing wrestlers whose lives we know about, both personal and professional.
I find that for the most part I'm able to. I don't care how much a wrestler may be a jerk backstage, as long as he's able to perform, I'll think highly of him. What do you and your reader's think?
My feelings on Shawn are well documented, I think: I always enjoyed the performer and hated the person. Same with Jake, because as much as I might rag on his personal demons, he was almost always able to bring it in the ring and it didn’t affect his performances. Chris Benoit is of course a more complicated case, but signs are pointing to me being able to eventually separate the performer from the person.
Seven years after the Jeebus-inspired comeback, are you still skeptical that Shawn’s a changed man?
I do believe Shawn is a changed man, but what people forget is that you never really can change your attitude towards the past – its changing your attitude towards the future. Therefore, Shawn Michaels is probably a better person nowadays, but deep down with past occurances – he’s probably the same prick he always was. I think if he was the man he was now, he might think twice before being the crybaby jackass he was during that era – but since he was that jackass back then – he probably smirks at himself and thinks its somewhat funny. He might even be a little bit sorry for it, sans Bret Hart – because I think he personally sees Bret as someone who was as bad as he was. Not saying it was true people, but there are a lot of Bret Hart haters that despise Hart as much as people depised Michaels.
Yeah, I’m sure a lot of the old Shawn is still in him, because that’s just who he is. However, the fact that he’s tried so hard to keep that part of him down, and from all accounts has done a GREAT job at it…. THAT is commendable.
I always liked Bret, and sided with him in most of the Shawn stuff. However, Bret has seemed to go out of his way to prove his harshest critics right. That he does just take himself way too seriously.
The point that I really lost respect for Bret was at a Hall of Fame dinner a few months or so ago, when he was accepting an award on behalf of his father. And instead of talking about what a great man his dad was, or how honored he was to be there, or how proud the rest of the recipients should be… he instead took the time to blast a book-writer and stage a walk-out of the dinner. Why? Because that writer had the temerity to not rank him high in a Best Canadian Wrestlers book. A book that most people have probably never even heard of. HOW DARE HE!?
Man I’ve read Shawns book like 4 times and yes it maybe a glossed over WWE read.. but it was a really good one at that…. the guy changed his life in 2002 and became a real family man… and it’s 2009 and looks like he hasn’t gone backwards.. he truely is a positive person. As far as wrestling goes he is without a doubt the outstanding performer since his return in 02′ and yet I don’t see any form of politics going on interms of booking… he puts on amazing matches yet never EVER demands title runs, mania main events every year… and pretty much puts over whoever they ask of him.
I respect him massively not only as a performer but as a person. Shawn is a winner in life.
Something that bitchy Flair and Bret don’t seem to be.
Bret “I can’t lose in Canada… your American you wouldn’t understand” Hart I sense is resentful that Shawn has managed to change his outlook on life and he hasn’t.
Scott it’s time you admitted that you maybe wrong about HBK. Some leopards CAN change their spots.
At least forgive Shawn and HHH for having a great match at Summerslam 2002.
While I think/hope Shawn has really turned his life around…here’s one thing I want to know your stance on: his ribbing Hulk Hogan at the SummerSlam match with the overselling and all because Hogan wanted to win?
Here is my take on that – overblown.
Everyone talks about how HBK made Hogan look bad with the overselling, but I just watched the match again about two months ago and I think the two agreed to this because there were too many spots Hogan did and it looked like when Shawn oversold it Hogan was expecting it. Especially at the end when Shawn big time oversold the big boot, and Hogan just takes it in stride and sells it like “I’m the best, brother.” I’m one that thinks in spite of his current problems that Hogan creates his own controversy and own hype and not as much of a prick as people label him as.
Again it the oversold spots just didn’t seem that bad to me. It still looks like a guy that went out and made a 53 year old man look like the unstopable monster he used to be. Sure he buried him the next night on Raw, but based on Hogan’s attitude – I think it was a start for another match and Hogan pulled out and then everybody saved face by saying Shawn was no-selling it. Hell Hogan is so much in his own world, it took six months to get back to him that Shawn no-sold the match the next night on Raw. He actually commended Michaels on the Raw episode he challenged Austin, and really didn’t start bad mouthing Michaels until Vince wouldn’t let him work Mania or the Raw afterwards and the he really pissed Vince off with the Anne Russo thing.
Vince is out for himself and his company, and Hogan is out for himself to make everything about him. Which is why you don’t see him working in the WWE. Hell if Hogan had his way, Cena would be laid out in fifteen seconds and Hogan would be posing on his dead carcus. Come to think of it . . .
I’ve always been pretty good at separating the wrestler from the person. It’s long how I’ve managed to appreciate and enjoy people like Shawn Michaels.
That said, there are always exceptions where I can no longer enjoy the person or the performer due to the individual in question doing something notably horrible. Chris Benoit is the most extreme example, Steve Austin beating up a woman really destroyed most of the respect I ever had for him, and Hulk Hogan is really pushing his luck the last few years.
Oh good, let’s all talk about Chris Benoit some more.
Anywho, I’ve never really cared much about personal behaviour. I tend to believe that party 1 has no business concerning themselves with party 2’s actions until those actions directly infringe upon party 1’s ability to live their life.
When I watch wrestlers I’m watching them at work and as long as they perform at work what they do in their off time is of no consequence.
There is a line but it’s pretty tough to cross it.
If Benoit was still alive and walking around with a smirk on his face, that would be the line. But just being a jerk, even a really BIG jerk? Meh.
“Oh good, let’s all talk about Chris Benoit some more.”
It seems to be the “smart mark” in-thing to pretend the man never existed, probably because his death calls into question every thing about the professional wrestling business.
He can exist. I just think he’s been discussed to death around here.
Err… So to speak.
With Benoit. I think every human being has atleast once in their life thought about killing someone personally. However most people know the prices paid and knows how to control their breaking point. Benoit couldnt control it and only God knows what Benoit is going thru. And I dont believe in hell per say, so thats all Im saying on Benoit.
If you have seriously considered killing your family then you really need to seek some professional help.
I didnt just say family, I just someone. It could be someone who tried to killed your family. Or someone who stabbed you in the back.
I get your point about people thinking of killing someone. But
1. That person isn’t usually your wife and SEVEN YEAR OLD SON.
2. Most don’t actually go through with it.
“I think every human being has atleast once in their life thought about killing someone personally.”
After the initial, you know, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH! factor of this comment all I could think about was that really big Michael Jackson fan on South Park who’s always saying “Oh, who wouldn’t want to touch a little kid every now and then? He just wants to touch little kids, that’s all!” In that really creepy voice.
Hilarious, and terrifying.
I always thought Shawn not wanting to win the belt was weird because he wanted new guys to have a shot at it. If HBK was really committed in making a new star, he’d win the belt, keep it for a few months and put over the next big thing clean at an important PPV like Summerslam.
There really is no pleasing some people… the guy has had a total of 28 days of a world title run in 7 years! I’m pretty sure if they wanted to put the belt on him they would.. but there has been no need too.. He has put over cleanly Benoit, Cena, Jericho, Orton in big world title matches.
The guy has been a consumate professional since returning… he has had a similar attitude to the Rock when he was still wrestling.
When it comes to the important moments he has lost every time but still stolen the show.
He is all about the performance not the result… something Triple H should be about too however his ego and large nose won’t let him follow in Shawns footsteps.
Shawn is truely ‘ressurected’ as a human and a performer.
I try not to be vulgar or confrontational, but after reading that comment, I have to ask…
ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?
Wait, so now that Shawn’s NOT demanding to win the belt, he’s an asshole?
You know, I honestly try to pretend that I only care about the in-ring performance, but the bottom line is that I’m human and I let little prejudices based on rumors that I read affect my judgment. It may not be right, but it’s true.
For instance, Rock and Flair are my two favorites, ever. And, for me, Rock is always going to beat Flair, as far as emotional reaction goes, because now I know that Flair is only sticking around to make a few extra bucks because he couldn’t handle his personal affairs. Meanwhile The Rock, by all accounts I’ve seen, is a pretty awesome dude.
This may not be right, but it’s the way I respond. I think wrestling is partly to blame for this too – at its heart, wrestling is a morality play. I don’t know if we can be expected to watch all of these hours of morality, and then not pick favorites based on our perceptions of their values and our judgment of their actions.
There are plenty of assholes in all forms of entertainment. In fact, the majority of these entertainers (wrestlers included) are no different than any of us. Seriously, we all sit here and rip all these guys while none of our lives our laid out for public scrutiny and we feel comfortable about it. To me, it boils down to whether you can do your job among the best. I’ve never had a problem with Flair or Brett or Shawn or HHH as long as they performances are great. That’s what I pay my hard earned money for.
I agree. I make an exception for someone like Benoit because what he did was so horrific. But no one is perfect. Some of the most revered figures in history were pretty horrible people in their home lives but that’s not what they’re remembered for. Bret may not have been the best husband, Shawn may have been a nasty drug addict etc. But they’re two of the best wrestlers ever and that’s how I judge them.
We just paint entertainers with such broad strokes when the facts are that humans are mostly nuanced. None of us would want to be portrayed the same way wrestlers are.
Putting this note aside…. did anyone see Smackdown last night…. it was seriously OFF THE HOOK.
I don’t know about you people but I had Rey/Edge at **** I haven’t seen Rey move that well in years.
I hope Scott actually manages to catch these shows of late, because I’m sure they will appeal to his spidey senses!
Just finished watching it, amazing show once again – which is now becoming an expectation. Jeff-Edge promo at the start was excellent and their feud is the reason I’m going to watch Sunday’s PPV (it’s free in the UK but if it wasn’t I’d order it for their match). I was surprised they gave away a long Punk-Umaga match but it actually worked in terms of building up their strap match.
I’ve also got to hand it to John Morrison because I thought he was going to flop as a babyface – he just seemed a natural heel. To his credit though, he’s getting a really good face reaction due to his ring work and the fact he doesn’t suck up to fans. His short match with Shelton was awesome. Since 1990, WWF/E has put a world title on someone new every year apart from 1995 and 1997. If he carries on like this then I think Morrison could be the guy come the end of the year.
It was another awesome show. Outside of the usual guys that stand out (i.e. Hardy, Edge, Punk, Jericho), I was impressed a bit with Killings. His promo work with Jericho was on point and shows a more serious side to the character that we know he has and I think it should be explored.
Although Jericho’s reaction to the “waz up” with “what’s up” had me cracking up.
My opinion on personal life vs. professional life.
Hulk Hogan: Actually Hogan being a complete self-centered a$$hole as made me a better fan of his. He was always entertaining with his promos and basic moveset into making you think he was a superhero and one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. His behind the scenes comments like “I was going to work Wrestlemania, but I threw my back out – the same back I lifted 1000 pound Andre the Giant over my head back in 1987 at Wrestlemania III, brother.” I feel sorry for him on the divorce stuff. I met him in 2007, and even though it was brief – I think he’s truly a guy that was given everything after having nothing and can’t live with the concept of going back to nothing.
Bret Hart: After reading his book, I get Bret. He was abused as a kid, and therefore really thinks that for all his pain and suffering that he deserved to always be in control of things. Which explains the affairs, and not wanting to job to a (bleep)tard like Shawn in 1997. I met him, and trust me – he has an ego – almost like Hogan’s – but gets a little more love because he could work. I don’t think he wanted to lose everything either, but in the end I think he’s lost more than Hogan – but I think Bret’s at peace with himself now. We hope.
Steve Austin: This is based on the Debra Marshall charges on him beating her. Hitting a woman isn’t right – under any circumstances. So if you are married to a bitch, just walk out because “putting her in her place” is just going to cost you even more money.
Chris Benoit: Never liked him to begin with, but liked his wrestling skill. When he did go crazy and murder his family – I just didn’t have an opinion. I was just in shock and I still can’t get over him killing the kid. WWE can claim “domestic problems” over “steroids and drugs” – but I still don’t think you kill your kid over “killing your wife in a domestic dispute” and usually you don’t put bibles down either. Benoit simply lost it . . . and may God have mercy on his soul.
Son of a . . .
Ric Flair: Flair, much like Hogan, wanted to live the gimmick. Hogan’s living the gimmick was more on ego, while Flair actually partied as wild as the man he was supposed to be. I’m starting to dislike him now in his current storyline – but in the day – he was the man. Period and I’ll never stop enjoying the man Flair was from 1970-2001, but once he went to the WWE . . . I was over him and now I’m even more over him.
Shawn Michaels: Much like Bret . . . but I think age has made Shawn more of a Bret Hart type of guy.
Off topic, but…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonga_Fifita
Weird, only places I’ve seen his “death” reported so far are here and a friend from the Fla. area. Did he get scammed by a Wiki editor, or is this true and did we lose another?
Lets hope it is a winde up. Another reason I think I take wrestlers life outside of the ring personally… is because of the amount of unnnessary deaths that occur. It just hurts every time even if it is a ‘numb’ not again kind of feeling.
Isn’t disliking someone for who he is off screen one of the top five requirements of smarkhood?
Seriously, I know what you mean. Part of why I am not really following the new stuff is because knowing what goes on behind the curtain just got to me eventually. It’s fascinating to be an insider, yes, but sometimes very frustrating.
Thanks for answering my question. I just have always found it strange that there are some people who love using someone’s outside life to go after them (Orton, Chyna, Xpac, etc.) professionally.
I openly admit to being a hypocrite on this issue. Despite the backstage stuff I’ve always been a HBK fan. I’ve always enjoyed Flair. I have no issue with Bret backstage so he doesn’t count in this issue. I’ve always liked HHH and Jake and others too. And I openly admit on this board that I still CAN enjoy a Benoit match.
That being said the one person that I held backstage stuff against is Hulk Hogan. Maybe it is because in the case of others I don’t think they held entire promotions hostage. And I could care less whether Flair parties, Shawn or Jake did/does drugs, or Bret allegedly is mark for himself. Hogan on the other hand let his ego hijack an entire promotion and along with the help of Bischoff (and a few others on a lesser degree) destroyed a promotion that was on top. Hogan’s ego and need to be the center of attention ruined the payoff with Sting. Caused him to walk in and out whenever he felt like it, caused the finger poke of doom, and caused us to have to sit through his 20 minute love fest interviews with Bischoff (which in retrospect are AWFULLY creepy if you watch them). When he could bring the fans back in WWF it was one thing to expect special treatment (read Bret’s book for some of the perks Hogan demanded and his backstage power plays). But in WCW he obviously was not the ratings draw. He had major “x-pac heat” by the time the NWO angle was only six months old. Yet he stayed around helping to destroy a company for 3 more years. Add in what he said about the poor kid that his son turned into a vegatable and you have a truly miserable excuse for a human being.
The one wrestler who I have trouble with in regards to this is Hunter Hearst Helmsley: no matter how many good matches he has or how many successful angles he’s involved in, I just can’t help but look at him and think about what a complete asshole he seems to be in real-life.
And I think that real-life heelishness is one of the main reasons he’ll never be as successful as a babyface as Rock or Austin: I’m sure both of those guys had their own faults (Austin’s are well-documented) but they were able to hide them fairly well in their public personas. But HHH’s smarminess just oozes from his pores and infests everything he touches (Wrestlemania 25’s main event comes to mind). The DX revival worked (as repulsive as it was) only because of Shawn Michaels and his willingness to make an ass of himself and the complete dedication of the WWE creative team to burying The Spirit Squad. If not for that, it would have bombed just like all of HHH’s face runs have since 1998.
But like I said, I am biased.