So, I just got through reading Bret Hart's (excellent) autobiograpy, and there's one thing I wanted to get your opinion on. Bret doesn't think much of Flair as a worker (and vice versa). What is your stance on that? I dunno, Flair's losing luster in my eyes. I was a huge fan of his back in the day (I was an NWA fan more than the WWF) and felt he was the greatest of all time, until recently. If a career is measured by the entire body of work, does his post 1995 work diminish what he accomplished up to that point? It's like he became a complete caricature of himself. As much criticism as Hart got for the "Five Moves of Doom", is it really as bad as Flair's matches being cookie-cutter? Flair was great in the sense that he could, as the saying goes, carry a broomstick to a *** match. However, was it Flair who was great, or rather just the formula? Hypothecially speaking, what if it was Bret Hart who was in the NWA and Flair was in the WWF during the same time period? Would Flair have managed to be as successful? I'm interested in getting your views on this as well as the folks on the blog.
Man, there’s a loaded question.
I do think that his continued insistence on wrestling when he’s clearly not capable any more is hurting his legacy in the long run, yeah. I do tend to think of his career in two phases, however: The prime run from the 80s-2001, and then the WWE phase from 2002-present, which is like two different wrestlers. Had he just stopped with the end of Nitro, he’d be the greatest of all time without any question.
Anyway, I can say without any hesitation that it wasn’t the formula in the 80s that carried the matches, it was Flair. He had the natural charisma and storytelling ability that you can’t boil down to a simple formula. Bret mainly got flack for the Five Moves of Doom from me because it was accompanied by his general lack of enthusiasm for the business in general and it was just representative of a bigger problem with his work. I mean look at how bad he got in his WCW run when he was literally just cashing a paycheque.
As for Flair and Hart switching places, Bret didn’t break out until the 90s, so it’s not really a fair comparison.
Obviously i’m biased in any Flair discussion; but I’m so tired of hearing how his legacy got tarnished because he’s old and he still wrestles. Lets look at a few examples in sports.
Did Jerry Rice’s legacy and hall of fame status in any way diminish or was he any less great in his prime because he slummed with some teams when he was old?
How about Michael Jordan returning to play for the Wizards?
Gretzky in NY and St. Louis?
I can go on and on with athletes that don’t know when to hang it up.
Flair is no different. Yes he sucks now (not on the mic mind you) and I cringed watching him on Raw last week trying to move around (as I do/did every single time Hogan came back); but does that make his matches with Steamboat, Windham, Savage, Perfect, etc, etc any less great? Absolutely not.
Not only that, he can still bring value to any feud/storyline with his work on the mic.
How can you say he’s anything beyond terrible on the mic these days?
Screaming nonsense at the top of your lungs does not constitute good mic work. Otherwise, Warrior Warrior is the greatest of them all.
Terrible? C’mmon bro, terrible is Jeff Hardy. I’m pretty sure the majority of folks don’t think Flair is “terrible” on the mic.
This anti-Flair shit is getting really retarded, really really really retarded. People want to see Flair, Flair is very entertaining, people love Flair’s talking, people like Flair’s wrestling, he is a legend, he brings in ratings, that’s why he is back. Period. He is trying to spice up this terrible terrible feud between two jokes who can’t lace his boots, try as he might even God can’t make Randy Orton and his terrible fucking chinlocks interesting.
But I’ll take Flair and McMahon’s old man fight from last year over any bullshit ladder match (and come on, there hasn’t been a good one since WM21). There are some things you can’t teach, or can’t be done by someone without 30 years of experience. Flair has it. There aren’t even five people in the history of wrestling who can claim to have drawn as much money as Ric Flair, and probably zero who can claim to have drawn as many fans. He knows what people wants to see so he delivers it.
He’s just like Jordan on the Wizards, he came back, he was old, but he was still better than all the young punks and he was what people paid to see.
*sigh*
Thinking like this keeps Raw a laughing stock. I talk to people every single day who used to watch wrestling and might again if not for jokes like Flair.
“Old man Flair is still out there?”
“I flipped on, and that dude looks horrible these days. It was so fake looking that he was beating on a guy half his age.”
“It’s sad. I grew up watching him, but he should’ve gotten out 10 years ago.”
These were comments I heard at work on Tuesday.
What, exactly, doe she do that takes so long to teach? Nut shots? Screaming? Chopping? Screaming some more? Failing to complete his own stupid comedy spots?
When is the last time any of the people who made that comment bought a wrestling ticket, t-shirt, pay per view, or DVD? 1999? 2000?
I went to see a Wizards game with Jordan (I was going to school in DC at the time)….the intro was exciting, the place was pumped during the warmups and then the game started. I walked out of that building so disappointed, Jordan was getting tooled on by guys who couldn’t carry his jockstrap. We never went back.
I don’t think anything Flair is doing now is tarnishing his legacy, as the Jordan/Wizards years didn’t make Jordan not the best player ever. It’s just not necessary.
That said, if Flair was in a managerial role like he was in with Evolution, I think that would be great and he could mentor a young star. But actually getting involved and wrestling, I just don’t think its a good idea. And it has NOTHING to do with the stupid “but he retired” shit…it has to do with the fact he’s really, really old.
It’s not entirely fair to compare him to Jordan coming back.
Flair is 20 years older than Jordan was at the end of his run.
If Jordan makes another comeback in 2020 THEN make the comparison.
Flair has been a complete joke since around 1994.
Feel free to back up your ricoculous statement with some sort of argument, unless you are just trolling, then nevermind.
He was completely buried once Hogan got to WCW and by time he got a chance for a run in WWE, he was too old.
I guess you either don’t know or don’t remember his WWF run from 1991-1993.
I’m guessing you either can’t read or tell the difference in years. His original post says that Flair has been a complete joke since 1994.
As 009 said, you should actually read what I wrote. I said it was downhill for him in 1994. I think his first WWF run was awesome.
I guess I don’t understand how getting buried by your boss makes you a joke.
Because he was immeditatly demoted from Main-eventer/world title holder to jobber to the stars/mid-carder. Maybe that doesn’t make him a joke….but his 2nd WWE run sure does. I mean really, he looked so silly out there throwing chops at HHH with his saggy old man body.
I can’t stand Flair. Never understood what people saw in him.
Okay, I’ve never been a Bret Hart mark, fan even I have to admit this much…
How many people in wrestling has Bret Hart had real-life heat with? Shawn Michaels. And most people in wrestling have had bad experiences with Michaels
How many people in wrestling has Ric Flair had real-life heat with? Where do we even BEGIN to start counting?
In the 80s NWA Flair was buddy-buddy with Crockett, got his own way, refused to put people over, pass the torch etc. In 90s WCW before Hogan showed up, same thing with Flair. Yes, Flair had great matches, making HIMSELF look like a million bucks. He always came out on top, always had his hand raised at Starrcade etc. Sure, he would build up his opponents…just to knock ‘em down. That’s the difference between Flair and HHH, HHH makes his opponents look like shit from the beginning. And of course, Flair far outstayed his welcome. As recently as 2007 he was causing problems backstage because he though he was being underused/wasted.
Now Bret Hart in the 80s WWF had Hulkamania running wild, and the basic concept was that “Bigger is Better”. The 90s WWF was The Age Of The Clique. Somehow the guy still managed to rise to the top and become a bigger draw during his stay on top than Flair ever was. Makes you think, eh?
I was the one who asked Scott the question, so let me expound on what I was saying. I was trying to get a response on Bret’s assertion that Flair’s matches were formulaic and “non-stop non-psychology”. The 2nd statement is demonstrably false. The first one, though…I can buy that. Most of his matches followed the same basic formula. Not saying the formula wasn’t great (it was), but a formula is exactly what it was. The comment above about him making himself look good was pretty spot-on, although in a way it actually made him look bad. Take the well-known match against George South, for example. There’s no way that South should realistically be able to take Flair down to the wire when he got no offense in against anyone else. As he got older, Flair’s routine began to become almost comedic relief ,the Flair Flop being a prime example. His promos too all of a sudden became weird, like he seemingly forgot how to be “Ric Flair”. It’s as if when they made his character go “crazy” in the last few years of WCW that he forgot how to do anything else (doing elbowdrops in the middle of promos being especially ridiculous). It reminds of of a child making a funny face, and the parent says “you’ll get stuck like that”. Well, that’s what happened to Flair. He was so great in the 1980s that he was my favorite wrestler for years and years, but watching him over the last 10 years is painful to the point where it makes me lose a bit of respect for him. To use a baseball analogy, it’s like watching Pedro Martinez over the last few years of his career and comparing him to his prime.
I see what you mean about Hart, though. Really, his attitude problems made the Iron Man match with Shawn Michaels suffer. It maybe a **** match (at least), but one I don’t like to watch. I also have to take exception to Hart being a bigger drawn then Flair ever was, also.
I saw a Bret interview recently where he gave an interesting summary of his Iron Man Match against Shawn. He said in most of his matches (against Austin, Owen, Bulldog etc.) he and his opponent worked together to create something special. But at WM12, he and Shawn worked against each other in an attempt to outshine the other guy, which is why it was so interesting. You can probably blame both guys for that.
As for Flair, I never watched NWA or WCW so can’t really comment. I did enjoy his WWF run in 1991-93 though (in that I hated the character).
Speaking of interviews, I also saw an old one with Flair in the Baltimore sun (from 1997). When asked about his retirement, he said:
“I’d like to come out to my music of ‘2001′ in the year 2000. Of course, I’d have to beat Hulk Hogan with the figure-four,” he said, chuckling. “I think that would be a good way to end it.”
Now THAT would have been the way for Flair to go out – and also the right time.
I’ll give a go on your comment about the “non-stop, non psychology”. Psychology is such a loaded, multi-varied term in wrestling that it seems to have a thousand meanings to everyone. But I’ll try to focus on one aspect, for sanity’s sake.
In terms of Bret, I’ve always got the impression that to him, psychology is basically building a story throughout the match, something which he was very, very stong at. Taking it through the ups and downs, the roller coaster if you will, with the intent of maximizing both the ride and the climax, like any good storyteller. I think, and of course I’m just speculating, that Bret feels that Ric never looked at how the course was being planned so much as making sure the tracks were remained upon.
For example, working on the knee in building up to the finisher. In Bret’s match with Diesel at SS ‘95, Bret thouroughly worked over the knee for a long period, mixing in other stuff with it, with the obvious intent of building to the sharpshooter. Of course the ending didn’t involve it, but as an observer, it was believable for him to do so and made a lot of sense. It was a big part of the story. It’s what you would expect Bret to do.
Now Flair could at times be much less inclined to build up through the match. Not all matches, I know that, but there were a number of times he’d spend twenty minutes doing his usual (the formulaic part you mentioned), and then suddenly do a knee-crusher and immediately go into the figure four, having barely worked on the knee all match. His match with Vader at Starrcade ‘93 comes to mind. To someone of Bret’s mindset (build, build, build), that would come off as making little sense.
So it basically comes down to how one chooses to build the story, and I think that Bret felt that Ric left that behind in the pursuit to “get everything in”, so to speak.
Flair was good, but his matches did seem a bit “same–old same-old”. I think Bad News Allen/Brown said that “if you’ve seen one Flair match, you’ve seen them all”. I wouldn’t go quite that far, but the man did have a point.
Bret did have certain set routines, but his matches were unpredictable, and he did try new things a lot of the time. It didn’t always come off as he would have liked, but at least it wasn’t just autopilot.
I never thought Bret ending his matches with his FIVE MOVES OF DOOM was anything like Flair. I mean, in a totally kayfabe sense, it would make sense that Bret would go to his favorite moves when finishing a guy off. Austin threw in a Lou Thesz press, stopped a mudhole and ended guys with a stunner…it didn’t mean all his matches were the same.
My complaint about Flair’s style is that it was a formula for the whole match. Obviously, Flair had the natural ability to make it work. I thought Bret was a better worker than Flair because his matches were all unique. His match vs. Piper at WrestleMania 8 looked a lot different than the match against Bulldog at SummerSlam. Even his matches with Austin…the first one at Survivor Series was nothing like the brawl at WrestleMania 13.
I thought that always helped with the suspension of belief (and Shawn is probably the absolute best at this) that all the matches are different. There were times youd watch a Flair match and know the Flair formula was in place.
I also don’t really buy into the whole “if you wrestle past your prime, then it diminishes your legacy” argument. When Flair was wrestling at his peak, he was the best wrestler, technical wise or character wise in North America without question in my eyes, and he was at the top of his game for a LONG time too.
I think Bret is right up there though. He was never as strong a presence, but he was just as fun to watch in the ring for me and also for a very long time. It’s odd that his most memorable and best match in WCW (outside of the Benoit match) was his debut match with Flair at Souled Out. They seemed to work very well together (in addition to their WWF title bout) and I would have liked to see more between them in their primes.
They are actually at the build-up to this feud on the Monday Night Wars on 24/7. The promos exchanges have been very solid and are focused quite simply on “who is the best wrestler” period. God forbid, WWE follow that simple formula these days. Didn’t the Souled Out ‘98 ppv do a great buy rate as well?
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I also read the Bret biography, and one of the other things he takes MAJOR issue with Flair are the chops. For some reason, Bret thinks they were ridiculous and only served to “actually” hurt your opponent and get in the way of the psychology and flow of the match. Of course, I couldn’t disagree more and would ask Bret to watch any of Flair’s matches with Steamboat to see if the non-stop chopping hurt those legendary bouts. But it was an interesting take. These two clearly do NOT like each other.
Indeed — it had the most buys for a Hogan-era WCW PPV without Hogan on it.
I got a horrible feeling Flair is gonna top himself one of these days… every interview he has he breaks down crying cause he can’t wrestle anymore…. I’m not gonna deny his legacy as one of the best ever but the guy on a personal level has become a joke, he takes himself wayyyyy to seriously. It’s time he started acting like a REAL man in the REAL world, it just seems outside the squared circle he has no control over his own destiny.
In the wrestling world he was the MAN, but reality he is a pathetic excuse of a person.
Flairs always been overrated. Bret was right about Flair’s chops.
The chops hurt and in this business you are supposed to give the illusion of hurting someone. Not really hurting someone guys like Flair does.
And if Flair was the so called greatest wrestler ever to have lived WWF sure didnt think much of him back in 1992 for him not to have even wrestled at Summerslam 92 in front of 80,000 fans. And 3 months later dump him into midcard status.
Flair is just an old broken man who only stays in this business nowdays so get can pay off his ex-wifes.
“And if Flair was the so called greatest wrestler ever to have lived WWF sure didnt think much of him back in 1992 for him not to have even wrestled at Summerslam 92 in front of 80,000 fans. And 3 months later dump him into midcard status.”
I thought this was around the time that Flair was dealing with an inner-ear/vertigo issue and he *couldn’t* go in the ring.
I never thought about chops too much until Bret said that if you’re actually hurting yourself and other people, then YOU’RE the mark. I found that very interesting.
Now I prefer Bret to Flair…BUT….it seems odd for me that Bret criticizes Flair for chops but thinks Dynamite and Benoit were awesome. Both used chops extensively as does Jericho, who is another favorite of Bret’s.
The problem Flair had with his ear was after Summerslam. In fact Flair suffered that ear problem during his 2nd WWF title run against the Ultimate Warrior in Phoenix.
Which I think is the reason he lost the title to Bret a few months later, isn’t it?
Yeah, Flair even said in his book he had to drop the title cause of this.
I’m pretty sure that Flair had a plan for Summerslam 1992 but it was a situation with either Hogan or Piper or Sid or some combination/form of that and none of those guys were available. That was back when the WWF booked shit months and months in advance so they couldn’t find an alternate plan and just interjected him in the main event.
Three months later he was part of the double main event at the Survivor Series after another short world title reign. So your claim of being dumped into midcard status is slightly overstated.
Flair 1992 was GOLD… I loved his short first WWF run. I don’t have a problem with Flair the wrestler… its Flair the person… in my opinion he is a failure as a human being… and it annoys me why people worship someone who hasn’t got a clue how to live a normal lifestyle at this stage of his life. He needs to grow up. He is just a giant baby.
Yeah, personally I hardly pay attention to anything involving his life outside of the ring. It doesn’t effect my enjoyment of a wrestler/actor/athletes/musicians work in their given field if they are jerks in real life. He does seem like he’s been far less successful inside the ring then outside of it, but that’s just how it goes I guess.
Err… other way around.
True, but WWF still didn’t care enough to want to keep Flair in early 1993, even though at the time they were really short on main-eventers and credible heels.
I agree with those that say Flair should give it up. I don’t care about ruining his send-off last year, it’s about presenting wrestling that is reasonably realistic. A guy in his 60s should not be wrestling guys in their prime, it’s embarrassing. It’s WWE’s fault as much as Flair’s because they don’t need to book him. If the guy can’t find a life after wrestling or is desperate for money then he can wrestle on the independent scene. But don’t have him gain the upper hand on your world champion.
WWF could had easily booked Savage/Flair rematch meanwhile Warrior could had faced Papa Shango to end their feud right there.
Ok, maybe my name gives me away as a Flair mark … but, I am glad the MoFo is back … and I hope he does wrestle one more match.
Why? Because WM 24 sucked! (especially for Flair fans) Yeah, he had a wonderful exit, blah blah blah. The pomp and circumstance were all great, but the match left something to be desired. While I didn’t expect a 5* classic, I wanted to see more vintage Flair (tm Michael Cole). Feet on the ropes, cheating to win, doing everything possible to win … and actually getting it in the end. Then, he could retire the next night strutting around saying that he will forever be the man, and I’d be happy. As it stands now, I see Ric’s retirement as kind of sad, as though he was literally put out to pasture, instead of allowed to go out on top (ala Hogan in the figure four). I dont enjoy the match at all, and its also a big blemish over WM 24 for me … so I wouldn’t mind one more comeback where he can go over.
Even if he came back again, who is gonna put Flair over and what they have to gain from it? Hogan isn’t coming back to put Flair over so everyone wishing that might as well get that out their heads.
The only scenario in which I could see which could benefit both Flair and the other person involved in a another retirement match is that Flair vs Austin since Austin never had a retirement match. But the match ends in a draw and both guys exit with some sort of grace.
I’d have to disagree, I hope Austin never wrestles again. IMO, Austin’s retirement should now be the benchmark, it’s the best one. He went out all guns blazing in a big match at Wrestlemania, against his most famous rival (and fellow megastar), and had a fantastic match.
Hopefully, other wrestlers will follow Austin and Rock’s example. Assuming HBK and Undertaker retire in the next few years, it shouldn’t be announced as their official retirement in case they came back for another match or two. But I guess announcing it will be a wrestler’s ‘last ever match’ increases the PPV buy-rate.
Austin has had the best retirement match so far … because it wasnt a retirement match, per say. But I agree, sometimes stars should just disappear from the ring without the huge ceremony … and let their legacy speak for itself. Stone Cold, and his no BS, bare essentials attitude is perfectly suited for that type of retirement.
Its sad, but also true, that Flair has nobody who really should put him over now. He could have gone over HBK at WM (with lots of cheating, HBK over confidence, and 4 Horsemen interference) … but a rematch now would mean nothing.
Steamboat could have one last go around with Flair … but he should have been done after WM 25 himself. Sting v. Flair would be awesome, but in that case, Sting really would need to go over. A Macho Man v. Flair retirement match may be ok (they always worked well together), but who knows what time has done to that magic.
I’m really, really, really, really, sick of Jericho jobbing, but he is the only current WWE superstar who could probably give Flair another good match, while playing the overconfident heel who gets his comeuppance from the dirtiest player in the game.
It seemed like they messed up a pretty good end to the story with Shawn at wrestlemaina –
How I think it should’ve worked: Have Shawn in control for about two thirds of the match, but then have him miss a whatever off the top rope (or hit the ring post or something like that) and get knocked out cold. Flair stands over him for awhile, but instead of covering him leaves the ring and intentionally gets himself counted out. That way he’s retired, but on his own terms and beats vince at his own game. And you do it without making Shawn appear weak.
I agree with this too. The WM24 match disappointed me, because it just wasn’t Flair going out like Flair should. I think a lot of people feel it’s untouchable because they believed it was truly going to be his last match, but I’m cynical like that. Wrestlers never retire. I can’t think of too many (or any) loser-leaves-town or retirement matches that resulted in someone actually being gone forever. Kevin Sullivan losing to Chris Benoit, did that do him in?
My exposure to Flair as a kid was limited so I don’t have the real nostalgic love for him that some do.
I do appreciate most of his work that I’ve seen over the years and I totally count him as one of the best ever but “past his prime” is not strong enough to explain Ric Flair in 2009. The man is in his 60’s and can’t do much more than chop and “whoo” at this point. There is no one on the roster that Flair should be going over or even holding his own against. Well, maybe Jeff Hardy.
Personally I think even his promos are getting old now. Elderly men screaming so intensely that their man boobs jiggle like a bowl full of Jell-O are not the stuff of wrestling legend. Inside voice Ric, inside voice. And yes, we get it – “whoo”.
I would also like to add that if you’re at an age where you’d be retiring as a bookeeper or a librarian you are definitely well past the point of being a competitive athlete of any description, even in a worked sport.
I’d be interesting to see concrete evidence of Flair’s drawing power now, in 2009. The main reason WWE keeps him on TV is because of his historic drawing power.
Let him stay retired, act as a good-will embassador for WWE and go to corporate functions (assuming he can keep from getting drunk and removing his pants at them — you know his legendary penchant for partying) to represent the company and help gain advertisers.
Flair’s certainly a more likeable person to act as the face of the company than Vince can be sometimes.
In watching Hart vs. Flair WWF matches you can see one major point of contention between Hart and Flair.
They start off the match as two good respectable wrestlers, as it goes on it gets more heated to the point where Hart pulls down his shoulder straps, something he only did when he’s “SUPER pissed” and starts hammering away on Flair. The fans are now seriously into the match, they feel Bret’s anger and are into him pounding the piss out of Flair.
Flair responds by doing his flop which gets some of the crowd laughing, destroying the serious tension Bret had been building since the start of the match.
And as others said the whole working the body part thing. Flair would go from working on the knee, then slap something like a headlock on them, then do another move that had nothing to do with his finisher, then go back to knee/leg moves at a much later time. Bret thought that made no sense at all.
I have never understood the criticism for the five moves of doom. Does anyone get on MMA guys for using the same submission moves? To me it seems MORE realistic that a guy has “go to” moves. In real shoot fighting, you use your best moves. To me using the five moves of doom is no different.
Personally, I hoped he stayed retired. Unless Flair comes in to put guys like Shelton, CM Punk, Morrison, Kofi, or Swagger over, he’s just basically wasting our time.
Anyone who thinks Flair can’t wrestle differently should check this out, especially the first minute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vho9JGiNP3w&feature=related
I’ll say this much: when I learned Flair was trying to make another comeback, I finally understood why the Japanese fans were so angry with Terry Funk for unretiring in 1984. Or what it must have been like to watch the likes of Bobo Brazil and Dick The Bruiser towards the end.
That ‘fight’ between Orton and Flair on RAW…just sad on so many levels. It’s clear that no one in wrestling will ever get a happy ending unless they pull a Rock and completely distance themselves from the sickness that infests the business. All those interviews with Flair where he claims that he can outwrestle 90% of the roster and Foley’s recent comeback in TNA just proves that most of these men have no concept of their own limitations and capabilities. Yes, Austin and Bret have stayed away thus far, but how long before somebody takes advantage of those massive egos and presents them with a ‘dream match’ they just can’t turn down?
With Austin and Bret, I don’t think their egos matter in this case b/c I don’t think either can physically wrestle anymore.
You may be right in Bret’s case, as I don’t think he could be medically cleared (at least not legally, but as we’ve seen there are plenty of corrupt mark doctors around) but in Austin’s case I think it’s not so much that he *can’t* wrestle again rather than he *shouldn’t* wrestle again for fear of serious injury. The fact that WWE tried several times to arrange his ‘comeback match’ after his retirement seems to indicate that he could be cleared medically (and again, don’t forget about mark doctors).