Hi Scott,
I was re-watching the first two ECW One Night Stand pay per views over the weekend, and I couldn’t help but think that capitalizing on that buzz and that excitement at the time was a wasted opportunity. If I had been Vince McMahon I think I would have booked the Manhattan Centre for a full year and aired every show from there like they did with RAW. I don’t think all the ECW originals, WWE defectors and rising upstarts at the time were quite ready to support ECW’s own road schedule right away (which is probably why it ended up touring with Smackdown or RAW). But I think cultivating that fan base using the TV show to get them exposure and just having that SUPER hot NYC crowd to put guys over every week would have done wonders for the brand. Then, after having been established they could have moved to the bigger venues and tours. But that intense yet intimate atmosphere is what I thought made ECW feel fresh and different. Now ECW is just like the other shows, just with guys I don't really know.
Having said that, I doubt that weekly wild and bloody brawls could have lasted forever, and the WWE-style may have prevailed anyway… so maybe the NYC crowd would have soured over time. And sure ECW as it is today is a useful tool in getting developmental guys some TV time. But I don’t think anyone could deny the spark that could be felt at ONS 2006 when ECW was going to “rise from the ashes”, even a whole year removed from the 2005 tribute show. It’s also too bad RVD smoked himself out of his spot as the face of ECW. It's probably when everything changed.
Just wondering what your thoughts are about the ECW brand and its evolution into today’s product.
I don’t even think the more toned-down product would have mattered, because the Manhattan Center is such a naturally hot venue that even crap like the early 93 shows are addictively great as a result. Plus I was never a huge fan of the original product in the first place, so it didn’t really offend me when they changed it up.
In fact I’m pretty much for any proposal that involves shooting live in the Manhattan Center every week again.
Go back and watch those early WWECW shows at Hammerstein. The crowd is HOT for stuff like Punk’s debut. What really killed the place for Vince was the crowd shitting on Batista/Big Show. The early 93 crowds ate up all the garbage Vince threw at them. Today’s crowd is so smart and negative about the product that they’d never let anything get over except for their chants.
That having been said, the IWC is creaming over Smackdown so much lately that maybe they could stick that show in there.
If there’s one person who benefitted big time from ECW, then it was Punk. With those early vignettes and crowd support, he looked like a huge star when he made his debut. I don’t think he would have done as well if he debuted on Raw or Smackdown – I know he’s talented but it helped so much that he started in front of a crowd that appreciated his character and style. And the fact is, if a crowd responds to you huge at a couple of TV shows then it starts to catch on with other audiences (of course it also works the other way – if a few crowds start to dump on you then others will follow). We’re seeing something similar now with Evan Bourne.
The new ECW was dead as soon as the crowd chanted “Change The Channel” at Batista & Big Show. But even looking back at the 1993 Raws…I don’t think the new WWE would have gone for that either. Like in the Beefcake interview was someone yells, “Kill yourself!”….they are so anal about every aspect of their production that Vince probably would’ve have move the show out of there.
The one thing you really notice watching Raw now compared to the birth of Raw is War in 1997 on 24/7….its so overproduced now….nothing feels spontenous. The only thing can hope for is good matches, which is why SmackDown is fun to watch and the PPVs have potential.
I was never a massive fan of the ECW product but I respect some of the innovations and ideas they bought to the table. I think what made ECdub popular was the venues and atmosphere.. that was what carried the product a long way. It was rebellious and “Raw”… The problem with WWE now is that it is sooo over produced… I was watching some old school 1997 Raw´s recently and the darker lightning… the steel mesh effect just made it seem like THE show to watch… it gave that exact rebllious feeling that is missing from todays product…. even the intro music and video for Raw were adraneline pumping… stone cold walking with purpose through fire… things blowing up.
Sometimes less is more and I don´t think Vince and Co have figured this out yet.
It´s like movies now…. watching that turd Wolverine origins it was just glossy over the top unrealistic special effects… all style no substance…. then you watch Batman Begins and I loved it for the íntense realistic less over the top fight scenes.
I think people are becoming tired of overproduction… I mean I was watching American Idol and geez that set is just so glossy and slick it is sickening…. time we went back to simplicity.
Substance>Style
Hammerstein Ballroom, Manhattan Center, one and the same?
Also where the hell is the Princess Smackdown rant. Were all Scott fanboys who come to read his stuff therefore Princess stuff gets a real lack of love, but I loved the rants and think her writing’s improved out of sight. Smackdown rules the world indeed.
Hammerstein Ballroom is one of two ballrooms at the Manhattan Center. I was there for a Ring of Honor show a couple years back, (think it was Samoa Joe’s last appearence), and at that time they ran the Grand Ballroom which is half the size, so I’m guessing it packed maybe a 1000. Now they run the Hammerstein regularly, so good for them.
ECW only ever “worked” when it was something different to WWE. As soon as it became “just another WWE show” it had no reason to exist(except the millions that Vince gets a year from it). Like Scott, I never liked the original ECW, but it was DIFFERENT from what WWF and WCW were doing(not that that’s necessarily a good thing). The first One Night Stand continued that a bit, but the moment ECW on Sci-Fi became “the WWE C Show”, it was over.
I think it went both ways, though. The old school ECdubbers had a die-hard idea that their wrestlers and way of wrestling was the right way to go, so anything that tampered with that was seen as not only changing the product but also watering it down.
I think Vince kinda had to kill the dream in order to keep it running with storylines intertwining with the rest of his shows.
ECW in 1996 was one of the freshest ideas for a stale industry. When WCW and WWF copies some of the style and raided the talent base, the party was over.
As good as ECW was, it never made money and was put out to pasture once TNN got Raw and ditched their ECW deal.
Vince bought the ECW trademarks and tape library and i just pushing the show as his C show. That’s it.
I don’t think ECW was really “fresh”, it was just doing something very different to what WWF and WCW were doing. When WWF and WCW re-incorporated some of those elements(please don’t say that ECW “invented” Hardcore. Watch the Billy Graham DVD) ECW’s only true appeal was gone. As far as raiding talent, only Raven and Rhino ever really “made it” outside the Bingo Hall.
Bobby Lashley and that Extreme Elimination Chamber killed anything that was left of the old ECW. And Vince winning the title was just pissing on the grave.
Uh, you can’t be serious with that last sentence, are you? Or am I simply not getting your criteria?
Watching the ECW shows from 95 & 96 has given me a newfound respect for the promotion. By the time I got access to ECW in 1998, it was pretty much a self-parody of itself and the fans were totally ECW mutants.
However, they were changing the game in the early years. For one, they pushed the heck out of wrestlers, giving guys like Eddie, Dean, Benoit, Rey, etc. their 1st American exposure.
Secondly, the hardcore stuff was not the mindless stuff it evolved into…they was usually a reason for the brutality. In the show I watched last night, Brian Lee chokeslams Tommy Dreamer through 4 tables. Yet it made sense in the context of the feud they were having and how it built to that…not just to pop the crowd.
Lastly, the angles & characters set the template for just about every character that followed in WCW & WWF for wrestling boom with the shades of grey, the realistic storylines and pushing the envelope. ECW just did it with guys that were less talented…its a moumentally difference between Raven leading a faction and Hulk Hogan leading a faction….just likes its different to have Steve Austin drink beer and kick ass compared to the Sandman.
Yeah, The old school ECW shows on 24/7 are my favorite things to watch right now in the line-up and probably the only thing that keeps me from canceling my subscription. They are probably at my favorite time period in ECW (late ‘96), as they make the slow build to Barely Legal in 1997.
What is also great is the off-color introspective and back and forth banter between Styles and Taz during these broadcasts. It’s quite frankly the only brutally honest content you can find within any WWE product these days. It’s gonna REALLY suck when the recordings with Taz before he left WWE run out and Styles is left to hold the fort on his own. How long do you think before he bolts the “E” as well? Ironically and sadly, he said something to Taz on one of the recent broadcasts about how he is “running out of friends here.” So right you are, Joey.
Raven’s nest was just a rehash of Kevin Sullivan’s Army of Darkness and Bischoff got the idea for the NWO from new japan ,not ecw… And yeah, Austin drinking beer is obviously similar to Sandman, but the notion of an angry texan kicking everyones ass wasn’t exactly created by Paul’E.
“As far as raiding talent, only Raven and Rhino ever really “made it” outside the Bingo Hall.”
You have to be kidding, man. Just off the top of my head, I can list the following guys who got their first mainstream American exposure in ECW who went on to be stars in other promotions:
Chris Benoit
Eddie Guerrero
Dean Malenko
Rey Mysterio Jr.
Rob Van Dam
Chris Jericho
While Rhyno and Raven are who you call the only ones who made it, the WWF did sign the Dudleys, Taz, and a couple of guys who never made it after their ECW stints named Steve Austin and Mick Foley.
WCW signed some nobodies named Jericho, Malenko, Benoit, and Guerrero. They also did sign Sandman, Shane Douglas, Percy Saturn, and Mike Awesome.
Granted many of the wrestlers I listed were stars before their ECW careers, they did contribute to ECW’s “success” and the defections by the WWF and WCW raids hurt business.
No one is suggesting ECW invented the hardcore style, but it introduced an element into an industry that was stale.
Er, let’s see Steve Austin 2-time US Champion, 2-time TV Champion, WCW Tag Champion, NWA Tag Champion, feuded with guys like Windham and Steamboat spends, what 3 weeks, in ECW jobbing for Mikey Whipwreck as an arrogant “Superstar”, and people claim that ECW made him?
Or Cactus Jack, headlined WCW PPVs against Vader, former WCW Tag Champion, HUGE fucking draw in Japan, again in a program with Mikey Whipwreck, and people claim that ECW made him?
I did forget RVD, but even then RVD is hardly the biggest draw ever is he?
AS far as signing Malenko, Sandman, Public Enema or any other guys, so what? If anything their complete flops in the big leagues merely exposed ECW for the bush league outfit it really was. Like Homer Simpson taking his small-town mascot act to Capital City and getting laughed at.
And as for the others, so any guy who ever passed through ECW was made by ECW? Why not claim Kurt Angle too? Or Chris Jericho? Oh, wait, you DID claim Jericho.
Never said ECW made Austin and Foley. Never said that about Benoit or Guerrero. All I said was that WWF and WCW depleted ECW’s roster and contributed to its downfall.
This is what I did say above:
“Granted many of the wrestlers I listed were stars before their ECW careers, they did contribute to ECW’s “success” and the defections by the WWF and WCW raids hurt business.”
So please don’t misconstrue what I said.
JohnnyC, one could argue all day about whether or not ECW “made” stars or not, but I think it’s pretty clear that without their exposure in ECW, Mysterio, Jericho, Guerrero, Benoit, and Malenko would not have been hired by Eric Bischoff, and definitely not by Vince McMahon. Paul Heyman gets the credit for bringing these guys to the attention of the American wrestling audience, so yes, in that sense, their stints in ECW “made” these guys.
Malenko was hardly a flop. Multiple time U.S. champ, tag champ, and cruiserweight champ. He was a big part of WCW until he joined WWE, including the attempted reformation of the Horseman. Just because Vince didn’t use him that much doesn’t make his very successful years in WCW mean nothing.
I never really understood the attraction of ECW but I do agree the smaller venues really add something to the show.
Works for concerts, works for wrestling too.
The Manhattan center was always a smarmy crowd even back in the early raw years… I remember guys flashing four horsemen fingers at the cameras all the time and HBK receiving a “Shawn is gay” chant(which was covered by Heenan saying theyre chanting “Shawn is great!”)
And I still don’t get how innovative ECW was when NWA/WCW was already doing that hardcore shit and using mainstream music for entrance themes before they where even around… And all of the territories where doing those highlight reel clips with mainstream music back in the 80s. WWE would have eventually incorporated Howard Stern/Jerry Springer type “edginess” without ECW ever existing because every other type of media was heading in that direction by ‘97-’98.
And just the name Extreme~! Championship Wrestling sounds so passe and pandering to 90s douchyness.
I was just thinking a couple of days ago about how the name and the whole concept seems so dated now.
Very much in line with the Springer/Stern fad.
Off topic, but I really hope you consider reviewing Spring Stampede 1999 for your next rant. It was really the last WCW PPV that had a major feel to it and a shred of respectability, as well as the “gateway drug” to the mess that was “WCW 2000″
ECW hasn’t aged well. But that doesn’t make the influence of the promotion any less. The fact is that we’ve seen the table spots hundreds of times now. We’ve seen WWE steal burning tables, barbed wire, violence on women, and anti-hero stars. You can try to talk up “old NWA” all you want, but honestly it’s not in the same ballpark. The stuff Sabu and RVD were doing wasn’t being done in the old NWA. The hardcore matches with weapons were way beyond what the territories ever did, particularly on any regular basis. Everyone can cite some match in Memphis or Dallas or whatever that was “hardcore” but no one until ECW was doing it on a consistent basis in American wrestling.
The technical skills of Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, and the luchadores was different than anything the big two was putting on at the time. The character of Raven was highly influential on the characters in the WWE attitude era. And most of all, even if you truly believe that everything ECW did was already done by the old NWA, the fact remains that it wasn’t until ECW did it, that Bischoff and Vince decided to borrow so liberally, both in ideas and talent. That alone makes it influential.
You can argue that the influence is a negative one. I can agree somewhat. The bar was raised so high with table spots, chair shots, etc. that we became jaded and wrestlers paid the price through injuries and crowd apathy if they didn’t try to kill themselves. And god knows matches between Axl Rotten and Ian Rotten spawned the crap that is/was CZW and a thousand other idiot gross out wrestling shows.
Strangely enough, I wa a huge WCW fan in 97/98 and still watched regularly even into the summer of 99. I came to ECW in mid 97 but managed to watch all the big shows that were available on tape. And what I’ve noticed is that NONE of this stuff aged well. The angles in ECW aged well, but the actual wrestling did not. The spots were so contrived in retrospect. But at the time it seemed all new to me, so I thought it was cool. I have the same feeling in watching old WCW luchadore matches. And in the case of WCW, the angles sucked in retrospect too. In essence none of the “glory years” of any of the three feds aged well, because the attitude era certainly didn’t age well either.
I don’t think you can ever catch that feeling of ECW again though. A one off show wasn’t too bad but trying to beat a deadhorse and try and revive a true “ecw feel” is next to impossible. Vince used the ECW name to get quick ratings and a TV deal, knowing damn well he had no intention of the product being anywhere near what fans expected of ECW. I remember going to a house show for ECW and all the fans around me were joking about how you knew who was doing the job by whether they were ECW originals or not. And that point surely hit home when two idiots in motorcylce helmets led by Heyman beat Guido and Mamaluke. Anyone who thought the new ECW was anything more than Vince’s marketing gimmick had to know at that point.
You’re right, I’d totally start religiously watching wrestling again if it was held in the Manhattan Center.
I’ll never get over the so called smarks’ inability to realize we are not Vince McMahon’s nor the WWE’s target audience. Vince restarted ECW so he could capitilize on the name, sell T-shirts and merchandise, and get another show started with a time slot he had on SCI-FI. He didn’t do it out of nostalgia for good ol’ EC-DUB.
He had Paul Heyman, Sandman, RVD and others at the beginning to help launch it and give it credibility, but those guys were jettisoned as soon as possible to bring it closer to his vision of what a wrestling show should be – an hour (or two) long infomercial.
Having said that I watch the five hours of wrestling a week that I can (not having WGN and having lost interest in TNA.) So I recognize I’m as big a sucker as anyone.