Aha, now here's one more my speed.
What's the one match that you think gets too much praise from wrestling fans. Conversely, what's the match that doesn't get enough praise?
Most Overrated:
Well I've long felt that UT v. Mankind from KOTR 98 is grossly overrated, but that's beating a dead horse. I think Flair v. Vader from Starrcade 93 isn't as great as people make it out to be, either. I mean, it's a pretty great match, but people who buy into it because of the Flair retirement stip and stuff are kind of nuts. I just could never get emotionally invested in it, but then I fucking hated WCW in 1993 so it's perhaps not a surprise. Hogan v. Bossman cage match is also vastly overrated, especially by people who are like "OMG, HOGAN'S BEST MATCH EVER!" or shit like that. I've never been all THAT impressed by it.
I think, however, the winner by far is Sting v. Flair from the first Clash. I just don't get why everyone dropped a load in their pants over it. Sting is completely exposed as green and it's the usual good Flair broomstick match, with a shitty finish.
First runner up is the original triple threat match from ECW with Douglas v. Funk v. Sabu. Watching it today, it's painfully obvious how they're stretching out the time and booking little mini-matches within it and such. Just never liked it, no sir.
Most Underrated:
At this point, I'm gonna go out on the limb and say both Austin v. Michaels matches from the 90s -- King of the Ring 97 and Wrestlemania 14. Just fascinating stuff, and the WM main event has 10 times the drama when you know what Shawn was going through during the match. It gives it a whole other level of meaning. The KOTR was one of those that should have been a classic with better booking behind it and a finish, but just never got a chance.
Let the sniping begin!
I think you just showed that a top one list is quite difficult – we always end up mentioning at least 3 or 4!!
A few spring to mind but my personal pick for overrated is the Bret-Shawn Iron Man Match at WM12. I know it’s an amazing achievement to go more than an hour in the ring – but this match was DULL!! The fact that it was between the two greatest workers of the 1990s makes it even worse. Not having a fall during the hour was stupid – Shawn should’ve taken the first fall to show he would’ve won a normal match and then Bret should’ve taken a big lead before Shawn came back to win – see Rock-HHH (but imagine Rock takes the final fall). But even if they don’t have any falls, they could’ve made it more exciting for the first 58 minutes.
As for underrated, I think there are a lot of matches with Bret (Bulldog at IYH5, Hakusi at IYH) and Shawn (Jarrett at IYH2, Owen at IYH6) that were very good but didn’t get a lot of attention.
The great thing about Austin vs HBK in 97-98 is that Shawn is trying sooooo hard to be the coolest guy in wrestling with the DX gimmick while Austin is obviously the most over guy since Hogan and just comes off as cooler than Shawn on all levels based on his swagger alone.
I love Flair vs Vader because even though the ending is obvious it still has the big match feel that WCW had been missing since Flair left and Vader doesn’t give Flair shit as far as selling goes until the end… When Flair with his mouth busted up the hard way finally makes his comeback laying into Vader with those lefts and rights and chops I still mark out like Rocky vs Drago.
HBK/Bret iron man match is the most overrated match… Good fight, but it wasn’t even state of the art for the time so I can’t give it a bonus for trend setting or anything like that and I just don’t buy into any of the drama of the match on any level. Going in I thought it was going to be played up more as a styles clash(lucha vs stampede) and it ended up just being a broadway with some ok spots and strikes out with most of the psychology. I think the Iron man match is a terrible stipulation in general. Just have the guys fight 2/3 or just go 45+ instead of having all of these forced finishes within 60 minutes.
Most underrated? I guess HBK/Angle from WM 21 because it seems to get forgotten in most discussions despite being one of the best matches of the last 10 years . Just outworks every other WM world title fight ever and showcases Kurt Angle in his prime calling the spots with “Mr Wrestlemania”.
The most overrated match of the last 15 years has to be the 1997 Terry Funk/Sabu barbed wire match from ECW’s “Born To Be Wired”. While I marvel at the bravery (i.e. stupidity) these two men had in shredding up their bodies for our entertainment, the match itself was just not any good. It was pretty much “spot-stall-spot-stall” for 20 minutes or so. However, many in the IWC treat this match as though it is the second coming of Flair-Steamboat.
The only thing I remember about the Hogan-Bossman match is the big suplex from the top of the cage, so that’s probably why people go nuts over it.
As far as the most overrated, I’ll go with Flair-Steamboat at WrestleWar. So many people call it the greatest match ever, but I will go to my grave saying that the Chi-Town Rumble match is the best of the series. Better wrestling and a better crowd, IMO. Don’t get me wrong – the WrestleWar match is still great.
Underrated – Luger/Steamboat from the Great American Bash ‘89. A perfect example of how far Luger had come and what he could do when motivated and in the ring with a great wrestler.
Honorable Mentions:
Overrated – Raven/Richards vs. The Pitbulls. An overbooked, sloppy mess of a match.
Underrated – Ohtani vs. Ultimo Dragon, J-Crown tournament. Now THAT’S how you do nearfalls and build to a finish.
I’m with you on the WrestleWar match. Watching them back to back, I actually like the Chi-Town Rumble match better than the WrestleWar one. Faster pace, more action, DEF. a better crowd.
I don’t know. It’s tough to consider even mentioning one of those fantastic Flair-Steamboat matches in a one match list about “most overrated.” I mean come on! Plus, the last 2 minutes of the Wrestlewar match plus the after-match activities with Funk are probably my favorite moments ever as a wrestling fan. Fantastic finish and transition into a new tremendous feud. But that’s just one man’s opinion.
I’d probably concur with the mankind/Taker match from KOTR ‘98 as being the most overrated. In terms of underrated, some good choices in these comments, so I’m gonna go random with the Luger-Pillman match for the U.S. title at Halloween Havoc ‘89. I remember being on the edge of my seat for that one as a kid. I never really hear many people talk about Pillman’s stuff from that time period anymore. Wow was he incredible.
Gotta agree with the Pitbulls/Raven & Richards match.
Some friends and I, who all really enjoyed the Rock/Hogan match, agreed that if Val Venis and Bull Buchanon and went out there and repeated the match move for move, gesture for gesture, it would absolutely suck, and we would be really annoyed that they gave those guys 20 minutes to wrestle. Obviously, atmosphere can make a match. Since I wasn’t watching ECW at the time, and we have no awesome WWE video packages on the match as of yet, I don’t get the history, and as such, it just seems like a brawl where no one really knew what was going on, and a bunch of stuff that I don’t know the stories for (Alfonso, 911, chokeslam being banned) goes on. If I were able to witness the background, I’d probably love it. Without it though, one viewing was enough for me.
For underrated, I’ll go with the third Elimination Chamber. It had one of my favorite builds and executions ever. The part where Batista’s buzzer goes off and the cage gets jammed for a second absolutely sent me into overdrive screaming for a tap the first time I saw it.
I watched the Pitbulls vs. Raven/Richards match after having watched all the buildup on History of ECW from 24/7 and it was definitely a lot more enjoyable after having seen all the buildup. The 9-1-1 chokeslam angle had been going on for a long time and seeing Fonzie get chokeslammed was just a ton of fun. Dreamer’s involvement was also pretty fun. I am not an ECW mark at all but I can appreciate this match. I wouldn’t say it’s one of the best ever but, it’s an overbooked shitfest at its best and sometimes that sorta thing is just fun.
I’ll throw in Foley/Sullivan vs. Nasty Boys from Slamboree 94 as underrated. Much like the match I just described, this one is just wild and a ton of fun to watch. The Philly crowd just eats it all up. Too bad it didn’t make Foley’s dvd set (I think it was cut because Ventura was on commentary.)
Another good Cactus WCW match that kind of gets lost in the shuffle when talking about Foley’s best matches was Cactus/Maxx Payne vs The Nasties from Spring Stampede ‘94. Just a great all out brawl and the spot with Mick suplexing the table onto one of the Nasty Boys is great.
I’m not sure if this has made a Foley DVD off hand, but a pretty neat match.
There’s no way any Flair/Steamboat match can be considered “most overrated.” I mean, seriously… they are the greatest matches EVAR~!
Most overrated: I’d actually have to go with the first Foley Hell in the Cell, because it was just and ugly car crash, and da’ Metlz is nuts for calling it ****3/4.
OTOH, for most underrated, I’d have to go with the LAST Foley Hell in the Cell (the one with HHH), because for me that thing was fantastic top-to-bottom, and played off of the history of the first match so well (even though as noted above, I don’t like the first match much). It hardly gets any mention, but for me, that HitC is one of the best matches ever and my 2000 Match of the Year.
But that’s just me.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: If the Bret/Shawn match had just been built up as a normal title match between the two biggest stars in the company without the “iron man” stipulation and just went an hour anyway then it would have been considered a million times better. Once the match hits the half hour mark with no falls everyone and their blind cousin knows it’s going the whole thing without a fall. I can’t imagine the drama of being a young mark at home watching them go near fall for near fall for an HOUR without a winner…it would have been the greatest thing since sliced bread. But if I’m expecting a bunch of cool finishes and submissions and I keep getting armbars then it’s naturally disappointing.
On an unrelated note, I really think they need to do an iron man match where a guy smashes the other guy with a chair and then pins him 4 or 5 times. I think HHH did something similar in the Rock match where he got a fall off a sleeper and then pinned him for another fall. Just brainstorming…
” really think they need to do an iron man match where a guy smashes the other guy with a chair and then pins him 4 or 5 times.”
I think they did that in the Angle-Lesnar iron man match that aired on a episode of Smackdown. Angle hit Lesnar with a chair – thus getting DQ’d and losing a fall, but then pinned Lesnar to make it up and had an advantage because Lesnar was out. Not quite 4 or 5 pins, but the same idea.
Actually that’s in the HHH-Rock match, HHH gets himself DQed for hitting Rock with a chair, bringing The Rock within one fall, then pins him immediately to go up by two falls again. HHH’s greatest “cerebral assassin” moment in my book. Although it would be even more clever to have a heel do that to win a 2-of-3 falls match.
Forget the atmosphere, Hogan/Rock is way overrated.
Ah, nice call.
But I think the only thing people were really going on was the atmosphere. The idea of two of the biggest stars in wrestling facing off in this huge stadium at WresleMania.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think anyone is touting it as a masterpiece of a wrestling match. I guess, though, it was good enough, since people were able to sit through it.
But I guess atmosphere does count for a lot. Lesnar/Goldberg from WM20 could have been a great match, but had the crowd reacted the same way they did, it still would have been a disaster.
Thanks for answering my question. The reason I limited it to one is because I know you hate “Top 5″ lists.
I do agree with the Clash Flair/Sting match. It’s a good match, but they’ve had better. My favorite is actually the one from the last episode of Nitro.
I actually think Taker/Mankind HITC is better than the overpraised Shawn Michaels/Taker HITC.
Overrated:
Steamboat/Savage from WM 3. A great angle, but I just don’t care for it.
Bret/Owen from WM X. I prefer their Summerslam steel cage match.
Eddie Guerrero vs. Brock Lesnar. Lesnar basically kicking the crap out of Eddie until Goldberg interferes and costing Brock the title.
Underrated:
Muracco/Bob Orton vs. Can-Am Connection from WM 3. This is the best match at WM 3 to me. I’d even go further and say it’s the best WM opener of all time.
Tito Santana/JYD vs The Funk Brothers and The Dream Team vs. The British Bulldogs from WM 2. The forgotten WM had these two great tag matches.
Hogan vs. Sgt. Slaughter from WM 7. While not as good as Hogan/Savage or Hogan/Warrior, I still think this match is pretty good.
Any match with Shane McMahon is underrated.
I think Sting-Flair is considered a big deal because it was the first match in what turned out to be a long and classic rivalry, and it helped make Sting a star. Plus it was the main event of a pretty historic show.
I mentioned that I’m excited to see it on the Flair DVD thread – but I’ve actually never seen it. I just want to finally see what the hype is all about. The fact that it hasn’t yet been out on DVD and hasn’t been seen much may be one reason why people talk about it – it’s one of the few ‘legendary’ matches that hasn’t been seen in a while. So maybe people don’t remember how bad it was
A lot of the big ECW matches will look overrated as pure “matches,” especially the early stuff when the booking was still good. I watched Cactus/Mikey-Public Enemy from 8/27/94 on one of the best of ECW DVDs a few months ago, and thought it was an okay brawl. Been watching 1994 ECW TV over the last few weeks, and with the build of the Mikey underdog angle, and PE running roughshod for months before then, the match feels like a much bigger deal and is much more entertaining – it went from maybe ** for me to ***1/2.
I’m gonna get hatred for this, but the WM X Razor/Shawn ladder match is vastly overrated. Shawn’s overselling really took away from the match, and I always hated his flopping like a hooked fish when he was tied in the ropes for the ending. I will always believe that it was only the second-best match at WM X.
Thank you, Max. Way, way overrated match. Sure, it’s influential, but I dare any of you to rewatch it and see how boring it is now.
More recent, I nominate Cena-Umaga from Rumble 07. I can’t for the life of me understand what I’m supposed to like there.
I don’t know how influential it was… I guess for young kids watching that didn’t have access to indie tapes or japan… I loved that match for the psychology more than the high spots.
Bret and Shawn had a GREAT Iron Man match. I would go as far as to say it is one of the most underrated since everyone seems to consider it overrated when it’s not.
The Rock/HHH Iron Man was great in its own right, and once Bret/Shawn had gone 1-0, it was the logical next step for Rock/HHH to be high scoring. I called that as soon as they first announced the stipulation on Raw. But just because they had more falls does not detract from Bret/Shawn.
Even though they happened just four years apart, they occured in totally different eras. In 2000, the belt changed hands every six weeks and main eventers got pinned every week on TV. Rock and HHH themselves had traded falls a million times. So losing a bunch of falls was no big deal.
I think this is what most people miss when they criticize the Bret/Shawn match: All throughout wrestling history, before crash TV, think about the logic used by promoters and bookers. Why would they book an Iron Man match to be 6-5? Once you do that, sure you’ve got a new Champion. But that new Champion has just gotten beat five times. Nobody in their right mind throughout most of wrestling’s history (and this still held true in the mid 90’s) would have considered that a good idea. Think about it.
Also, consider the context of the story. The 1-0 score provided a legitimate climax. Shawn had never pinned Bret and had never won the big one after years of trying. To win 1-0 put him over huge. If he had already scored four falls earlier in the match before the big one, it would have detracted a little from when he finally gained the deciding fall.
The psychology is very strong. Sure, the first 15 minutes are pretty slow, but they should be. Both guys know going in that they have to go an hour. Why would they take a lot of high risks? Then as time goes by, they realize the first fall could win it, and start slowly pulling out all the stops. That match builds logically and beautifully. The last 20-30 minutes are as strong as any match ever. And they did it without any of the bells and whistles that were given to Rock and HHH.
As for the HHH “hit Rock with a chair and trade falls but injure him more in the process” strategy, it’s a nice touch, but I think it’s praised too much. Yeah, it makes some sense. But why not keep doing that the whole match? And why stop at one chair shot? Why not keep pounding away a dozen times, get DQ’ed once, and then pin him four times in a row? Why stop there? It appears to be a smart move, but when you think about it for more than a second, it opens up way too many holes in the concept of the match.
So for underrated, I’ll go with the Bret/Shawn Iron Man, and I’ll also toss in Bret/Piper (one of the most unique, yet simple matches ever) and Shawn/Jarrett (perfect mix of classic old-school psychology with modern action).
There are plenty of overrated matches, so I nominate almost any main event from 1998-1999, where 90% of it covers meaningless brawling in the aisle/crowd, breaking the announce table, using a chair, and trading finishers. That covers dozens of matches.
I take your point there and I’d agree that the match played out in quite a realistic manner (which is what Bret always went for in his matches). And Shawn said the same thing in his book – if they were getting pinned a bunch of times then they shouldn’t be fighting for the championiship.
The problem is that although it was realistic – it wasn’t particularly exciting to watch. You have to keep people’s attention for the full hour, not just the last 10 minutes. The first 15 minutes sapped the excitement out and with no fall after half an hour I was just getting bored. None of the near falls were believeable and I could easily have just skipped the match until the last 2 minutes.
An alternative way to make the match exciting without 9 or 10 falls would be the following. Shawn takes the first fall after 20 or 25 minutes, indicating he would’ve won a normal match. The rest of the match becomes interesting because you’d believe Bret’s near falls in order to tie it up. You’d also get into Shawn’s near falls because 2-0 would wrap it up. It all culminates with a similar ending – Bret puts the sharpshooter on Shawn but in this finish, Shawn taps with 3 seconds remaining. It ends 1-1 before Gorilla comes out, match continues and Shawn wins in the same manner but 2-1 instead of 1-0. This scenario makes for a more exciting match and doesn’t make either wrestler look weak.
You’re entitled to your opinion, but you’re making the first 58 minutes sound like it’s one giant headlock when it’s not. The first 10 minutes are pretty slow with Bret working headlocks and Shawn working the arm, but it’s so well done that I personally find it interesting because it stands out as unique since we usually don’t get to see that. Granted, I wouldn’t want to see Savio Vega and Goldust doing that kind of match, but it’s Bret and Shawn, so they can do it well and make it interesting. The slow portion doesn’t last nearly as long as people claim. Once they’re 10 minutes in, they’re already working in the skin the cat, headscissors, leapfrogs, a spinebuster, sharpshooter attempt, some sequences off the ropes, etc.
The match really picks up at about the 15-minute mark or so, shortly after the spot where the timekeeper eats the Superkick. Take the portion of the match from 15-40 minutes and you’ve got an awesome, fast-paced main event match. And then they somehow came up with 20 more minutes that was even better. The only difference is that instead of the opening mat-wrestling portion lasting five minutes like in a lot of Bret matches, they extended it to 15. If that extra ten minutes bores people, I can understand it, but the next 45 minutes are legitimately fast-paced and dramatic and should more than make up for it.
The pyschology in Iron Man matches is a bit screwy because the need for drama interferes with the realism more than in other matches, like I mentioned with the HHH chairshot example. I see what you’re saying when you suggest that a 1-0 lead would have added an element that the next fall could make it 2-0 and clinch it. But say someone does go ahead 2-0 at the 50 minute mark. It’s pretty much over at that point. And then you have a really anti-climactic final ten minutes. So I could argue the same thing if they went that route- that a 1-0 lead makes the result of the next fall predictable because they wouldn’t make it 2-0 so late in the match. It’s kind of like the difference between a baseball team clinching their division with two weeks to go in the season, or winning it in the last game. In wrestling, it’s always going to be the most dramatic finish possible, even though there should be nothing inherently illogical about a 2-0 lead or a 4-0 lead with 50 minutes left.
As it was, I do think the near falls were believable. Only with 8-10 minutes remaining did it become truly obvious that one fall would win it, and at that point you’re left with a really dramatic final 10 minutes, so that’s a good thing. Up until then, it would have been very feasible for somebody to score the first fall at the 48 minute mark and then have it tied up 5-10 minutes later. Since it’s been so long, some people act like it was a foregone conclusion that it would be 1-0, but at the time I think people were expecting a lot of falls, so the longer it progressed without a fall, it was like a giant curveball being thrown at the audience. In a way, that made every fall even more believable because fans were so surprised there hadn’t been one yet. And unlike the Attitude era when only interference and finishers scored pinfalls, it had long been established that a fall could come out of nowhere at any time, especially in Bret’s matches.
I have to disagree with you about the Sharpshooter spot at the end; it works much better in a 0-0 match than it would have at 1-0. First of all, if Shawn is ahead with 30 seconds left, why is he going to the top rope out of desperation in the first place, or letting Bret get anywhere near his legs? But the real issue is that Shawn is no longer the underdog/challenger if he’s ahead 1-0 for half of the match. That detracts significantly from the moment of him finally taking the lead and the victory for the first time at the end. It ruins the climax.
The drama of Bret being able to win it with the Sharpshooter in that spot trumps the drama of Bret being able to tie it. Besides, it was designed to make Shawn look strong, not Bret. With Shawn hanging in there, knowing he’d lose the match if he submitted, it really put him over huge, to the point where it seemed like he deserved to win that much more when he ultimately prevailed. And that’s a key point, because it solidified the story as Shawn winning as the underdog, instead of Shawn getting lucky that Bret was slighted by the overtime decision.
With Shawn ahead 1-0 in the final minute before the Sharpshooter, you paint yourself into a corner. If Bret can’t tie it up, then he’s been behind most of the match and ultimately loses, and there’s far less drama in Shawn’s victory. If you have Shawn quit with a few seconds left, it’s counterproductive to everything they’ve been trying to build up throughout the match. You save the challenger’s big win for the end, you don’t give it away when there’s 40 minutes left.
Sorry to be so long-winded but this match has always been a favorite topic of mine. I think the 0-0 score worked perfectly, and it was just as exciting that way, if not more exciting. I think this match is an underappreciated classic.
An overrated match should be the TLC match from RAW in 2002 were Kane and the Hurricane won and was named the best match in RAW history at the 10th anniversary.
I don’t think that match counts as overrated b/c no one outside of the WWE thinks it’s all that great. I’m pretty sure the voting for those Best of RAW awards was rigged.
My overrated list is…
-TLC (Wrestlemania X7)
-Rock vs. Austin, every match (they’re comedy garbage brawls)
-Iron Man (Wrestlemania 12)
-Tully vs. Magnum I Quit match
-Sting vs. Flair from Clash 1
-Royal Rumble matches in general. The only three that were truly epic were 1992, 2001, and 2004
-Pillman/Liger
Side note: I don’t think the KOTR match with Austin/Michaels was that good. Michaels was on something and both guys seemed to be off timing.
Underrated
-Shawn vs. Sid (Survivor Series)
-Austin vs. Michaels (WM 14)
-Michaels vs. Undertaker from Ground Zero (damn fine storytelling there, awesome brawl, should be *****)
-Undertaker/Bret (One Night Only)
-Vader/Bossman (Spring Stampede 1994)
Just off the top of my head.
Most overrated wrestler ever: RVD, Sting second
Most underrated wrestler ever: Bob Backlund first, Sid second
It’s funny that you mention Undertaker/Bret from One Night Only because it got me to thinking that I seem to recall a pretty good (not monumental, but good) Austin/HHH match from that Mayhem in Manchester tape WWE released back in ‘97/’98.
I haven’t watched it in ages, so I should probably dig out the tape and see if it really is the forgotten classic I remembered it being or if it sucks monkey noodles.
Knighthawk, I LOVE some of the underrated matches you mentioned. Sid vs Michaels & Bret vs Taker are 2 of my all time fav’s. HBK vs UT rocked the freakin’ casbah, too. I’d also add Bret vs Taker from Summerslam to the list (maybe my favortie ending to a match ever).
So many options here…
Overrated
Bret-Owen Cage match at Summerslam 94 — Bloodless cage matches bore me and actually Bret had similar “practice” matches with HBK during his 1994 run so I knew the ending ahead of time.
Steiners-Varsity Club series — I loved the Steiners but the Varsity Club did nothing for them. Neither the Australian tag match at Clash…I forget which one…or the Bash ‘89 match.
Any Ric Flair-Sting match — Sting was NEVER on the level he needed to be for them to have a classic match. Luger was a far better pairing.
Ric Flair – Kerry Von Eric — I think the heat had something to do with how short the match was, but Kerry wasn’t very good at all. Winning with a backslide?
HHH-HBK 2003 RAW match — Still don’t see it being much more than a kick-punch affair with good enough timing to build drama.
Underrated
Test-Shane McMahon — It’s amazing how Test fudged a golden opportunity and HHH probably deserves part of the blame. But it was one of those matches that was overbooked just enough to work perfectly.
Any Austin-Savio Vega match — They had a couple of damn good matches in the early part of 1996. Really stiff, real good work from both sides.
Randy Savage-Tito Santana series — Probably Savage’s best work before the Steamboat match came along. Tito was a good opponent because he had that perfect babyface energy that the crowd could get behind and they looked like they really hated each other.
Savage-Ultimate Warrior (Summerslam 92) — Not as good as their Wrestlemania VII match but still a damn good match by Warrior’s standards.
What do you mean by Sting was “never on the leve he needed to bel”? I think WCW dropped the ball not pushing him when Sting was in his prime in ‘94-95(he was doing germans and planchas and his body looked great on every Saturday night)… And your also saying Luger was a better worker than Sting? Okay then…
No…I said Luger was a far better pairing for Flair than Sting…read again. Luger and Flair had much better matches than Sting and Flair.
And the 1989 version of Luger blew away anything Sting did during any one portion of his entire career including the good stuff with Muta. Luger was not only more over, but in consecutive months from Dec. 1988 to the summer of 1989 he was paired with Flair, Windham and Steamboat consecutive and kept up with all of them.
But Sting was never the guy he needed to be to have great matches with Flair. He could never put together the match he needed to make people captivated by his abilities. I think he was a decent worker, at times he could be good but never on the level one who have you believe. The one great singles match I saw him have was against Cactus Jack and it was as much of Mick bumping like a machine as anything.
Underrated
Any Austin-Savio Vega match — They had a couple of damn good matches in the early part of 1996. Really stiff, real good work from both sides.
It’s funny you mention this, b/c in my opinion, whenever I think of OVERRATED matches, the Austin/Savio matches immediately spring to mind. I’ve read a lot of reviewers talk about how great both the WM XII and the strap matches are, and I just don’t get it at all. They’re watchable, but I wonder if people are remembering them more for the fact that Austin/Savio was Austin’s 1st real WWF feud.
Another match I think is vastly overrated is the Summerslam 98 Ladder match b/w Rock and HHH. I’ve tried watching it numerous times in one sitting, and I just can’t do it. Everyone talks about how this match made the careers of both guys, but I find it to be a rather boring match.
As far as underrated matches go, I think that the HBK/Angle Vengeance match is far better than the WM 21 match. It had a more exciting pace to it, it was more dynamic, and didn’t seem to drag as much. Maybe I enjoyed it more since there wasn’t such a big aura around it, and I wasn’t going in with huge expectations. But for whatever reason, I was glad to see it included on HBK’s DVD set over the WM 21 match.
I also think that the Rumble match from 05 is up there with the “gold standards” of 92 (which I admit deserves the praise) and 04 (which I think people fawn over simply b/c Benoit won it…and I’m a huge Benoit fan). The storytelling throughout the match is great, such as Puder getting beat up by Holly, the SD/RAW guys facing off, EVERYONE teaming up against Hassan, the GM’s at ringside…Plus, I loved the ending. Screw up or not, it worked, and it didn’t seem contrived at all and in no way took away from the match.
I liked the strap match more than the WM XII match but I liked both. I guess, it’s more of the shock value because I didn’t expect much from it and it surpassed my expectations. But I could understand how it’s overrated if everyone says its a great match.
I agree on HBK-Angle Part II, I gave it the full boat on my Heartbreak and Desire rant. It was as close to perfection in terms of storytelling and Angle broke out the turnbuckle powerbomb.
I’d say the following matches are underrated:
Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude
30-minute Iron-Man match from Beach Blast ‘92.
This is my favorite iron-man match and I hope it makes it onto an eventual Steamboat DVD. Everything works in this match: Rude’s selling of the ribs, a three-minute sleeper, and even Bill Watts’ stupid jumping-off-the-top-rope DQ-rule.
Steiner Brothers vs. Hart Brothers
It’s from some old Coliseum release (I think Wrestlefest ‘92) and all four had their working boots on. Scotty even busts out the Steiner Screwdriver. My favorite part of the match is Gorilla and Stan Lane on commentary. The way they analyze the holds and the strategy puts the match over as a legitimate competition. Frankly, I prefer that style to the current “telling a story”.
The Thunder Queen Battle (July 31, 1993)
It’s a Joshi Iron-Team match with AJW against JWP. The match starts with 5 minute individual match ups, followed by a 40 minute, 8 woman tag match. It’s non-stop action and booked perfectly. Here’s the link to youtube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=i_u7u_Pzamo
As it turns out, the others are on youtube:
Steamboat vs. Rude
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-3q5DFhKUmw
Steiners vs. Harts
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3GL_j4N1Byg
Did somebody say Magnum/Tully is overrated?? I know modern fans are trained to wait for the highspot, but are you really completely numb to the brutality and drama? That was like a REAL fight, a great fight, that builds accordingly to two guys trying to STAB each other, in an attempt to maim & scar each other. THE BEST PART is when Magnum has won and still has Tully by the hair with one hand, and the sharp wooden object in the other, and he pulls a Daniel LaRusso in Karate Kid 2 and chooses mercy. In-ring, Magnum was BELIEVABLE. More than any other wrestler of the last 30 years. His facials when selling are the pinnacle of “mat acting”.
I did see a Muraco match on one of the Underrated lists. ALL “Magnificent-Era” Muraco matches are underrated, if only for his incredible showmanship.
I think Angle/Benoit Rumble ‘03, and the TagTitleTournament final from No Mercy ‘02 are Underrated, simply because they are THE 2 Greatest matches EVER. Period. Those two. I never hear anyone say that, other than “Angle & Benoit had a classic at Rumble ‘03″. No… not “A” classic… “THEE” Classic! Angle-Michaels WM21 comes close, though.
And as for a FORGOTTEN underrated classic, Michaels-Benoit in Phoenix for Benoit’s World Title, and HHH comes out for the screwjob finish. Minus the finish, the best one on one action I’ve ever seen.
I said Magnum/Tully is overrated. I stand by it. It’s a good match. A really good match. But it’s not a five-star match. It’s not one of the best matches ever.
Yeah, I also have to go with the WrestleWar match for Flair vs Steamboat over the Chi-Town Rumble bout, even though they are both really good. I saw a match between them on handheld camera that looked to be just about as good as both of them too.
I also second the Luger/Steamboat match — that’s maybe my favorite match for both of them, and the aftermath is great as well.
Most overrated match for me is probably the WrestleMania X7 TLC match. I find the logic for the match and the spots to be ridiculously contrived, not to mention a whole lot of “we’ve seen this before”. It just seemed like they knew by that point that the crowd would pop even if they did the same old spots. It’s harder to appreciate now, the Summer Slam 2000 match is far better.
Oh and throw in my vote for Mankind vs Undertaker at Summer Slam 1996 “Boiler Room Brawl” as highly, highly overrated as well. It was a total borefest with the Paul Bearer turn at the end that you knew was coming and couldn’t wait for it to happen so the damn match would finally be over. I can remember me and all my friends just thinking it was such a waste of nearly 30 minutes of PPV time. It’s a good thing Vader vs Shawn was really good (hey, that’s maybe another underrated match!)
new to this blog; here’s my two cents:
overrated:
Cena/Michaels – ‘Mania 23
Taker/Mankind – KOTR 1998
Warrior/Hogan – ‘Mania 6
Rock/Hogan – ‘Mania 18
Sting/Flair – Clash I
underrated:
Kidman/Mysterio vs. Worlds Greatest Tag Team – Vengeance 2003, a great tag match that no one talks about
Angle & Benoit vs. Los Guerreros – Rebellion 2002
Benoit/Michaels – February 2004 Raw – the first match they had, not the title match in Arizona
Hart/Michaels – Survivor Series 1992
Hart/Diesel – KOTR 1994
First time poster, this is a topic I really wanted to comment on:
overrated:
1). Undertaker vs. Mankind – Hell in A Cell – one of the most talked about matches ever, enough said
2). John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels – WrestleMania 23- only overrated because Scott gave it like ****3/4, Cena did like 4 moves the entire match, in my opinion it was carried by Shawn, ***1/2 tops.
3). Sting/Flair from the first Clash, its an okay match and did kinda turn Sting into a star but the pacing is really slow and its just too long
4). Warrior/Hogan – ‘Mania VI – it was the best match they could have ever had with each other, its *** tops, maybe because I’m not a big fan of either one, I just cant get into it
5). Rock/Hogan – This match was extremely mediocre from a wrestling viewpoint, it was only memorable because of the crowd
…I’m sure I’ll think of more later but thats all I can think of now
underrated:
1). Chris Benoit & Kurt Angle vs. Los Guerreros – Rebellion 2002 – I know no one will remember this match because it was on a meaningless UK show but this match was really good (a big surprise considering the participants, I know) and almost on par with the Angle/Benoit vs. Edge/Mysterio series. It reminds me how good the Smackdown 6 really was.
2). Billy Kidman & Rey Mysterio vs. World’s Greatest Tag Team from Vengeance 2003 – a great tag match with no dead spots
3). Someone already mentioned the Benoit/Michaels match from May ‘04 so I’ll say Michaels/Benoit from February (night after No Way Out I think) where Michaels won, I liked that match a little better because they did more with less time compared to their sequel match
4). Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart from Survivor Series ‘92, I never hear anyone talk about this match but to me this is the best match they ever had with each other, I love the turnbuckle spot where Bret catches Shawn and revereses into a sharpshooter for the finish- a spot they copied in their ‘Mania match…minus Shawn tapping
5). Diesel vs. Bret Hart from King Of The Ring ‘94, the match wasnt anything spectacular and the two had much better matches later but I really liked the Bret/Owen/Jim Neidhart story that surrounded the match, plus Nash for the most part had his working boots for this match
Yeah I agree about Shawn vs Bret from Survivor Series 92. I remember thinking how it was a really big deal putting the IC champion against the WWF champion (ala Hogan/Warrior).
I think it was just overshadowed by the fact that the smarks really got into the real life feud between Bret and Shawn, but it’s a much better match then there Survivor Series 97 match and I think it’s better then the iron man bout too. Even their ladder match from 1991 gets more talk then this bout does.
I’ll probably catch flack for this one, and I haven’t watched it in years, but…I remember being insanely entertained by the first UT/Mankind showdown in 96 (KOTR). I’ve read some horrible reviews of it, so I should probably give it another look. Still, I remember thinking it was tons better than I expected it to be.
Actually I think that’s one of UT/Mankind’s best matches. Who has given it horrible reviews? It was very good and the clean win really put Mankind on the map. KOTR 96 is quite an underrated PPV as a whole actually. It’s only remembered for Austin’s promo but his match with Mero, Taker/Mankind and Shawn/Bulldog are all very good matches.
I completely concur. I freaking love KOTR from 96. I think the honorable Mr. Keith only gave the Mankind/UT match sometihng like a *. That’s strictly off memory though, so I could be way off.
Anyway, rock on. It was an awesome show, with the emergence of Mankind as player in the E, Owen rocking out on commentary, a great main event, a good match between Austin & Mero, and of course, the first (of many) breakout moments for Austin.
Come to think of it (and to completely shift gears), I think that’s what really makes a star. It’s not one great performance or moment – it’s a series of them. Austin had the KOTR speech, breaking Pilman’s ankle, the Bret match at Survivor Series, the Rumble win, THEN the awesome Mania match, the Hart Foundation feud, his involement with the Dude Love, the “stun the world” angle, a second Rumble win, and only then was he truly given the ball, where it was all about him. No point for that. It just makes me question the whole thought of “(insert match here) could’ve made this guy had they put him over.” Austin lost his two biggest matches before his world title win, and still went on to be the biggest star in wrestling history. He didn’t need the “big win” until nobody would question the fact that he had earned it.
No real point to all that I guess. Just thinking and writing simultaneously.
Owen Hart’s commentary gold at KOTR 96. Second only to Bobby Heenan at the ‘92 Royal Rumble for single-day color commentary magic.
Great column, I love reading everybody’s responses. My own choices are based on Scott’s star ratings.
My choices for overrated:
Austin v. Rock (WM X7) Yes, it was a good match, but I never got into it to the extent so many fans see it. Plus, Austin’s turn at the end (while a great storyline) was completely missed by the Texas crowd. ****3/4 by SK, my rating: ***3/4
Rock v. HHH (Judgment Day 2000) As others have explained the WM12 fiasco earlier, allow me to quip briefly on this widely hailed match. Other than a few smart spots (notably HHH getting DQed for the chairshot, then getting a pinfall over the prone Rock), I don’t get what is so fantastic about the match. The first 30 minutes are pretty dull and standard in their fighting in up and down the aisle to kill time. ****3/4 by SK, my rating: ****
Underrated:
Flair v. Steamboat (Spring Stampede ‘94) I think this is a fantastic match with an ending that should have lead to rematches all summer. Maybe not as perfect as the 2/3 falls match, but definitely stands up to Chi-Town and WrestleWar, and should not be left off of the radar when discussing the ‘89 feud. ****1/4, my rating ****3/4
123 Kid v. Owen Hart (KotR ‘94) Perhaps the greatest five minute match from any PPV. Kid sold his injury earlier in the night from Jarrett and Owen finally had somebody who would pinball-bump for him. ****1/4, my rating ****3/4
Bret v. UT v. Vader v. Stone Cold (IYH Final Four) This match is ridiculous. Vader bleeds all over the joint and still kicked major ass. Not one dull moment. ****1/4, my rating ****3/4
My Honorable Mention doesn’t go to a match, per say, but underrated moment of wrestling history. I love the ending of the DX/Corporate Rumble on RAW early ‘99, simply because I marked out like crazy after McMahon thought he won, only for Chyna to come down, beat up the corporate cronies and nearly beheading Vince by throwing him out, becoming the first, and only women, ever in the Royal Rumble.