Things are DIFFERENT now!…different now…
I’m sure everyone will have read this by now and will have formed their opinion on it, but let’s go over it anyway.
I think it’s wonderful that Mr. Kennedy advocates owning up to your own demons and taking responsibility for your own actions, and he’s definitely right about one thing — it’s much different now than it was 20 years ago, when guys were partying like rock stars. 20 years ago, the previous generation wasn’t dropping dead on a weekly basis. 20 years ago, I didn’t check magazines with a sense of dread waiting to see who the next early casualty would be. And sure, just because someone dies of an overdose doesn’t mean it’s 100% the fault of the drug dealer, but don’t they deserve some share of the blame? Has Vince McMahon EVER stepped forward and taken ANY responsbility for the fact that wrestlers previously under his employ have been dropping like flies for the past decade? Even when he put forth the half-hearted “wellness policy”, which has crazy notions like “drug testing” that other employers have used for the past 30-40 years of so, he still wasn’t willing to come forward and say “You know, maybe when we train fans that the only main eventers are roided freaks, we’re doing a disservice to the business”. Or maybe rehiring a multiple-time admitted user like Jeff Hardy is asking for trouble. Or maybe waiting until Rob Van Dam is actually caught by the authorities smoking pot before firing him is asking for trouble.
I’d like to agree with Ken that we’re all just being a bunch of worry-warts here who don’t know the business, but when I’m watching Wrestlemania V and literally counting, into the double-digits mind you, people who have dropped dead before 50 years of age since that show aired, maybe that says there MIGHT be a problem here.
Wait… So you where watching WM 5 and counting all of the deaths and you DISAGREE about all of the drug/steroid/alcohol use back in the 80s having an effect on all of the recent premature deaths?
it just seems though that most of the wrestlers that are dropping dead are the guys who started in the mid to late 80s during the steroid/coke’d up rockstar period…Rude,Perfect, Pillman, Guerrero,Ted Petty, Spicoli,ect… And I don’t think it has anything to do with main eventers having to look like roided up thor clones, but more to do with the stronger style and stiff bumps a lot of the guys did to keep their spot on the show… I do hope Kennedy is right and this new crop of wwe talent fair better than the guys that came up during the late 80s in the long run…
Hey, I hope things are better. But signs are not good thus far, what with guys like Eddie and Benoit, who were part of this “new generation” dropping dead and all. Where are we drawing the line here? Do we not count Jeff Hardy and RVD and Sabu because they’re not dead yet? When Kennedy’s talking about the guys “20 years ago” who pumped themselves full of steroids, do we just politely cough and look away from Bobby Lashley, Dave Batista, Chris Masters, HHH and countless others? While we’re at it, Mr. Kennedy isn’t actually a natural physical specimen himself.
Kennedy’s a hypocrite who is engaging in the very behavior he’s condemning. It’s the old “blame the guy in office before me” political BS that they were using 5 years ago, when things were apparently worse. Kennedy says this stuff now because he’s not the guy on top protecting his spot, much like Austin blamed Hogan for his misfortunes before he turned into Hogan himself years later. We’ve seen and heard all this before, and they can cry foul all they want, but if the government steps in, they’re all fucked six ways from Sunday and I think deep down they (and we) all know it.
Scott, Benoit didn’t drop dead, and Eddie was one of the most turbulent drug users of 90s wrestling. Pretending that those two guys are indicative of a new generation of wrestlers just wait to kick the bucket is pretty wrongheaded.
We don’t count RVD or Sabu, because they smoke pot. I’m no hippie, but marijuana is about the most harmless drug there is, and lumping that in with steroids, coke, and prescription pain killers is stupid. I’m pretty sure no wrestling deaths in the past twenty years or otherwise were the result of someone hitting the bong too much.
And he’s right about personal responsibility. No one is forced into this silly form of entertainment, and if the pressures of life on the road or to bulk up get too great, these people still have a choice.
Marijuana + “harmless” = ignorance. Have you ever seen the movie “Reefer Madness”? Did you see the way that kid was playing the piano, and how that gal was all horny and stuff? And what about that kid getting framed for shooting his sister?
You know who needs to take responsibility? Those damn emo’s. They cut themselves and blame society for maing them want to hurt. Then they drown their sorrows in some Lipton Green Tea. I can’t stand that.
Yeah, pot’s pretty harmless when you’re sitting on your couch with a bag of Doritos.
But what if you’re behind the wheel of a car?
Agree 100 percent scott. Kennedy is or has used steroids, there’s no doubt in my mind. He already has suffered two serious injuries, so he might find himself on the outside looking in on the business before he knows it. I think at this point the WWE has had as many deaths as World Class, though their roster was smaller. There have been too many deaths in this business and things need to change. While RVD may only be a pot head, you think that Sabu has never taken painkillers? Or Jeff Hardy?
Being, technically, in the entertainment industry, I don’t feel the government should step in without investigating the lifestyles of, say, rock stars. How many of them have died before 50? I do agree with what you’re saying, Scott.
However, I am curious about statistics for wrestlers in Japan and Mexico. I mean, the WWE has an extremely tame wrestling style compared to the Japanese style; I can’t speak as confidently about the Mexican style because I’ve not seen as much of it. But I’m quite positive that, in a typical AJPW or IWGP match, one could count plenty of moves and spots that would never see the light of day in the WWE. And yet, those guys don’t seem to seem to be dropping like flies.
As has been noted already, Benoit didn’t “drop dead”….he committed suicide. Also, almost all of Eddie’s heavy drug use was BEFORE he entered WWE. WWE repeatedly sent him to rehab, and fired him when it became apparent that he wouldn’t take rehabilitation seriously. They only rehired him after it was evident that he had cleaned himself up.
The industry has been flawed forever, we all know that, especially those who follow it closely. But discounting the steps made by the WWE in its Wellness policy is hypocritical, especially by someone who has sold books on an industry he is basically condemning. The Wellness policy is the first step towards making the business safer, and I think the McMahons have realized the mistakes they (and others) have made, albeit through tragic circumstances. Eddie’s death was the start of it, and now Chris’s death will enhance it. (I hate the choice of words there, because I don’t want to say the murders of two innocent people are a positive, but Benoit’s actions will change the industry)
While the WWE (and the industry itself) are pretty fucked up, I generally agree with what he said. The excesses and dark side of the wrestling industry are fairly well known by now, and if you choose to make a career in that business, you can’t be surprised at what you get.
In a more broad sense, and I think this was what he was talking about more than anything, there’s personal accountability. There’s little to none of that in the US right now, and it’s pretty sickening. Everything done wrong is blamed on someone else and people are treated like babies who can’t make their own decisions. Because of that, citizens are constantly being told what they can put in their bodies, watch on TV or a movie screen, play, and say. And it’s gotten pretty ridiculous.
A grown person aged 18 or above should be able to do whatever they want (within reason) as long as it’s not hurting someone else. That includes drug use, gay marriage, abortion, and so on.
Yeah, I don’t think the WWE has any culpability with any of the wrestler deaths besides Owen Hart… Thats like blaming the music industry for the deaths of hendrix, morrison, lennon, joplin,tupac, cobain, ect…
The type of people who get into wrestling or rock music or hip hop or porn are all a bunch of weirdos to begin with so it shouldn’t be surprising to us when they die young…
There’s personal accountability, and then there’s nowing that is you don’t take steroid there’s a 90% chance you’ll never be pushed.
There’s also knowing that if you don’t take pain pills you’re body can’t handle the grind of the WWE schedule because there’s no time off, and if you do take time off you’ll lose your spot.
Then there’s the choice, should I taking sleeping pills because I hurt so bad (even though I’m on pain pills) and I can’t sleep but I have to be on a flight tomorrow?
Yes there’s personal choice, but the culture makes the choice a near impossible one.
Excuse my spelling in my last comment, I’m at work and type too fast….
“and then there’s knowing that is you don’t take steroid there’s a 90% chance you’ll never be pushed.”
Yeah because Mick Foley and the Big Show were so obviously on the juice…
They were the other 10%.
It’s possible that Big Show could have been. If Big John Studd was on it, and he’s comparable to Big Show’s size, he could have.
Foley, I don’t think so. Not to start a “who’s on steroids” debate here, but I don’t think Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, or Hogan are, simply because we’ve seen them at their roided-up worst and they are far too skinny looking now as compared to the 80s-early 90s versions of them. CM Punk too, since if the guy won’t even drink alcohol, he’s probably not going to put something as destructive as steroids in his body. At least that’s what I’d like to believe.
Edge isn’t. He’s gotten so damn tiny now I almost wish he would hit the juice.
Also, it seems the only place where physical size has ever determined one’s status on the card is the WWF/E. In WCW’s last eight or so years, it was how far one made it working in the WWF, and it’s looking more and more like that’s the case in TNA.
except that edge has been prescibed and used steroids as a part of his physical therapy for the surgey he had for his neck, the same exact surgey that benoit also had. Why does no one see this connection?
Oh, I know he was using them. But around the beginning of 2006 is when he started shrinking, and he’s shown no signs of stopping. Pretty soon he’ll be like Grampa Simpson, wandering around saying “Oh, I’m as big as I ever was.”
I agree with some of what Kennedy is saying in the larger sense that most of the guys that have died young were guys from the drug-fueled 80s when it was a lot more than steroids that they were using. I still can’t equate Benoit’s death w/ pro wrestling because it’s too far of a leap. If people have been abusing steroids for 20 years and it is the reason for Benoit murdering his family, how come it never happened before? Steroids is way too easy and neat of an explanation. Personally, I think Benoit snapped from all his wrestling friends dying with w/ Biff Wellington being the straw that broke the camel’s back.
While I think Kennedy had some very good points in his diatribe, he went at it in such a manner that it came off poorly. Look at the Great American Bash as an example. Before Mysterio’s name came up in the investigation into Dr. Astin, he was pulled from the main event because they didn’t want to rush it and McMahon, appartently, put Kane in because he wanted a big guy in the main event. Sure, he doesn’t tell people to take steroids but, gee, that’s an indication of what he wants, isn’t it?
And in watching 24/7, I find it interesting that a lot of the guys from the mid-80’s NWA are still alive while the 80’s WWF is a different story. I think there is a gross misconception by the mainstream media that you have to be on steroids to be a superstar. The problem right now is that it is probably true because Vince has a body fetish and he holds all the cards right now and it’s not going to change.
I just find it a little sad that we as wrestling fans are now starting to make noise about this, like a lot of noise, in response to Benoit’s death which may not have anything to do with pro wrestling.
Kennedy is my favorite wrestler right now, think he has all the tools & little things to be a star and I actually appreciate the fact he made a very controversial and, seems like, heartfelt statement on the situation. I admire his honesty compared to guys like Cena REALLY walking the company line like a little bitch. That’s unfair, if I was getting paid millions, I’d probably do that same.
I agree with your last paragraph, and want to add that if there’s anyone who CAN afford to stray from the company line, it is John Cena. Considering how over he is and how much merchandise he moves, they wouldn’t punish him too harshly. If Shawn Michaels could get away with the MSG incident (which was a big ass deal at the time, considering no one had really broken kayfabe like that beforehand), Cena could get away with speaking his mind a little bit.
Well, it is true that you pretty much have to take steroids in WWE to succeed, and most end up taking pain pills to deal with the insanely rigorous schedule and various injuries, small and large.
Maybe not enough people trying to break into the industry know about these things. It is something that’s not exactly hard to find out about, though, and so it is kind of your responsibility if you insert yourself into that environment, as harsh and unyielding as it may be.
Oh boy.
Where do I begin?
First off, its still a choice that these people do this. If I walk into a bar to listen to music, it is a choice for me to decide if I drink a Coors Light, a Red Bull, or a Coke. It was my dad’s choice to smoke cigarettes. It is addictive, but he could have stopped if he had really cared. I am sick and tired of people (especially people in my country) blaming other people for their problems.
Forget about peer pressure, or not getting a push. It is still the person’s choice! If the person doesn’t have a certin look, then try to build your persona and character and be a goofy person that Vince might push as a midcarder that gets airtime, or take up kite flying instead.
So I agree with Ken Kennedy, 1000 percent. Its their choice, and they made it. I’m sure Kennedy is doing roids right now and just doing “damage control” for his company, but I still agree with them. You don’t have to drink beer, you don’t have to do drugs, and you can make your own choice about it.
Of course, we live in a society where we glorify drugs even outside of the wrestling world. I mean everywhere I turn its about hollywood stars drinking and doing drugs — and yet I see nobody outcrying the government in stopping or regulating them. Wrestling is Sports Entertainment, but they’re as much actors (as with any sports celeberty (sic) today) as the actors are. Yet, I see no attempt (outside of maybe when Kramer or Gibson says something racist and stupid) to boycott or ban these people or the rock n roll scene for their lewid, and illegal behaviors.
If it makes money, it gets swept under the carpet.
Wrestling is not in a boom right now (although it makes money), so why not attack big bad “rasslin” for all the world’s problems when we then glorify Paris Hilton spending 30 days in jail.
The thing is, even beyond Benoit, we’re dealing with a set of issues that can’t be summarized or explained away with, “Well, it was their choice to do what they did.” There’s all sorts of questions that should be asked, some of which Vince McMahon himself should speak to: Why *is* there the perception that only “big men” can draw? Why does McMahon seem intent on playing up to it? What would be the problem with offering full-time concussion specialists and more break times for wrestlers? Why has WWE resisted nearly all media requests until now? (Cena was the first active WWE wrestler to be allowed to take part in an interview, and now Dave Finlay is being sent to debate Marc Mero on Nancy Grace, I think.) Why does the WWE’s wellness policy differ from the NFL’s in what constitutes a “positive” steroid test? These recent posts by Kennedy and Gregory Helms show an unwillingness — or perhaps an inability — to ask these questions.
And to speak to another point I’ve read, there is a form of regulation on entertainers in other industries: The Screen Actors Guild, the International Alliance of Stage Employees, the Actors’ Equity Association.
Dave Finlay was a road agent for five years-obviously he is going to defend the company but I think he would be more than knowledgeable about what goes on and could give us some insight into the locker room culture. Mero, however, has been on the periphery of the business for a decade and doesn’t know shit about what goes on.
“And to speak to another point I’ve read, there is a form of regulation on entertainers in other industries: The Screen Actors Guild, the International Alliance of Stage Employees, the Actors’ Equity Association.”
Are they managed by the government?
They do provide some semblance of accountability for both the workers and management, though, no?
Who cares. It’s only wrestling. These guys would be down at the local bar starting fights with normal people after some blue collar 9 to 5 job anyway. Screw them. Benoit (or any of them) don’t care when the money rolls in, right?
McMahon pushes the big guys because he believes that, for example, Kane would squash Jeff Hardy like a bug. The common people don’t really care about workrate, etc. They just want to see the big muscle guy win.
There’s a far cry between what Rob Van Dam was doing, which with all current medical knowledge is almost harmless and what most of the guys are doing which is loading down dozens of somas, vicodins, and oxys and shooting up anabolic steroids and HGH in the kind of doses they use to grow beefed up cattle.
You’d think at least with all the heat on them they’d have the good sense to take Lashley out of the spotlight for a minute. Kennedy is right about some of this, grown men are responsible for their actions and some people come out of the wrestling business okay. Look at Chris Jericho, he just quits, moves on with his life and is fine and healthy, or The Rock, or Bret Hart who’s actually looking good for a guy his age after his setbacks the last few years.
I think the distinction that he’s making is that it’s not the 80s where guys were openly doing cocaine and shooting each other up with anabolic steroids in the locker room, if people are taking growth hormones and steroids they’re doing it in private and not telling anybody. Apparently the wellness policy is independently ran, the company that conducts it should release their testing criteria and past test results so we can get some clarity about what they do and take another step at moving on past the Benoit murder-suicide.
Also, why is the WWE the only one under the microscope. Look at the whole industry while you’re at it-how about TNA hiring someone with the obvious drug and emotional problems that Kurt Angle has without making him take time off to kick his habits or do anything to get him better before sticking him out there like a circus animal. Obviously due to their lighter travel schedule and the nature of their shows their locker room culture is different, but you’d be a fool to think that a lot of painkiller/hormone/steroid abuse isn’t going on there too.
Steroid abuse in an organization that gives Scott Steiner a job? I’m shocked!
The reason that WWE is the only one under microscope is because WWE is the whole industry for all pracitcal purposes. TNA is on the fringe. Nobody outside of serious wrestling fans has ever heard of TNA, and even most of the wrestling fans who have heard of TNA couldn’t care less about it.
Plus, the Benoit situation directly relates to the WWE. But yeah, for better or worse, in the eyes of most of the public, the WWE *is* pro wrestling.
It’s like the baseball steroid situation. People are not going to talk about the minor leagues (even though steroid use happens there too) because nobody’s ever heard of Joe Shmo from the Class A Springfield Sheepfuckers. On the other almost everyone’s heard of Barry Bonds from the San Francisco Giants.
Now, I’m not saying that TNA is minor league, per se. It’s just the way that the mainstream media sees things. And afterall, for shows like Larry King Live, etc., it is all about ratings.
I actually should rephrase that and say that shows are not going to spend “too much time on the minor leagues,” since they do talk about them when someone gets suspended there. Although, even then, it only gets talked about on the hardcore sports shows, not even something like SportsCenter.
Honestly, you’re overestimating how much people know about other sports. I know the name Barry Bonds but I couldn’t have any less of a clue what team he played for unless someone told me.
And I’m sure that in baseball, much like wrestling, the minors tend to be where people go to right before an early death. Curt Hennig and Crash Holly had a TNA stint mere months before their passing. Did they probably have severe addiction problems in TNA? Oh definitely. Did TNA take them because they were a big ex-WWE name? Yep.
Everybody who’s even the smallest part of the industry is to blame. If TNA allowed their workers to form a sports union or join an entertainment union do you think that would not have a SEVERE impact on how WWE does business? I’m just saying, EVERYBODY who is a part of this problem is responsible. I don’t mean to assassinate a man’s character-but if someone told you a big wrestling star did this and left all the names as blanks when it happened would Kurt Angle have been someone you guessed? He certainly, upon outward appearances, fit the bill more.
I have to say, Vince McMahon is also right in stating that only five people have died under contract to him. Eddie Guerrero did irreparable damage to his heart with cocaine and the toxicology report never mentioned steroids. Pillman, heart condition. Haas, heart condition. Benoit, suicide. The only one where you can squarely say with impunity, “This is 100% WWE’s fault” is Owen Hart and that was not a drug death.
Oh, Scott Steiner’s never done a steroid in his life. If you just listen to him, it’s all genetics. He says it all the time.
Konnan’s been critical of TNA during his appearances, for whatever that’s worth. One thing, though, is that that promotion is blowing a golden chance to really differenciate itself from WWE, if only for tactical reasons.
Watching SmackDown, they aired their new “Don’t try this at home” PSA. I wonder if they’re trying to make their fans feel guilty with that one: “What entertains you tears their bodies apart.” I think that’s the thing everyone in the media is jumping on them about, isn’t it?
That PSA has been around since long before the Benoit death and it probably is the same clip with Benoit’s bump into the table removed.
The media’s perception of wrestling is so wildly fucked that they can’t attack it with any credibility. There are actually people out there who still don’t understand that the fans know it’s fake (that stupid, “how do they know it’s fake and still care?” question) or believe that this somehow “exposed” the wrestling business to all us stupid marks. Football tears your body up too, but since that’s a sport considered legitimate nobody questions them or runs round the clock infotainment coverage about them. The NFL has a pretty lousy track record with their guys dying young, committing suicide, killing people, using drugs but the media gives them a blowjob every January and turned the Super Bowl into a near mandatory cultural event.
LETS CUT THE BULLSHIT ONCE AND FOR ALL.
I’ve been a wrestling fan since I first saw Hogan slam Andre. I’ve been a fan of Scott’s since the netcop daus through the smarks and the blogs and now to here.So I’m asking, ne begging, the entire IWC to cut through all of the crap for once. The news media in general is a biased, sensationalistic, ratings driven monster. The evening news hasn’t delivered on actual news story in almost a decade. Every station has its own agenda. Benoit may have snapped and killed his wife and kid, or he may not. Why is it so hard to wait for the toxicology and coroners reports? Why do we continue to feed into this BS media frenzy?
For all the negative he has done for wrestling, I have always hated Kevin Nash. I hated him when he was wrestling mabel, I cheered Davey Boy Smith when he turned on him, I hated the outsiders, and I couldn’t stand the fingerpoke of doom. With sll that said, my respect for the man hit the roof when he was on Hannity and Colmes because he shut their ignorant mouths up. He didn’t play their games and he brought truth and his own opinions equally.
We sit here day in and day out arguing over the same things and we never come to a resolution, because there is no resolution to be reached. We are fans of a current product that is humbled with a curse brought forth by vince mcmahon. Vince was the one to bring wrestling national and he was the one with the big man fetish. Unfortunately for the industry, he is the man who runs it and has run it for the last 20 years. So it should not come as a surprise to any of us that the curt hennigs, davey boy smiths, hercules hernandez, big bossmans, and rick rudes continue to die on a weekly basis. They gave everything they had and they took illogical and unsavory methods to do this. Should we blsme the one who asked them to give or should we blame the willing? I don’t have an answer, you can debate that for your selves, but in the end the world has lost a lot of good men, who did what they thought they had to do to survive.
The talk now is of the puro and mexican wrestlers who aren’t dropping dead at an alarming rate, but to them I ask of gary albright, shinya hashimoto, and countless others who have died in the ring. This is a sport no one gets into for fun, you get into this sport for the glory or for the love of competition. I was a wrestler for 8 years and I saw steroid use and I saw the things wrestlers would do for glory and this was on an amateur level. The only reason foreign wrestlers are not dropping dead at the rate of the americans is because of the body types they have and the way wrestling is perceived over seas. Look no further than Misawa, possibly the greatest japanese wrestler of all time, and compare his physique to the last 15 WWE champions (with exception to the big show).
The problems in pro wrestling right now are so all encompassing and so far reaching that an overhaul of everything from the promoter,manager, and fan perspective needs to change. The sad truth is, is that it will never happen. We can blow our horns as much as we want on the net. We can make our voices heard through JR’s blog and all of the other superstars blogs. But the fact will remain the same, we will never be able to save these superstars we love to watch and perform. We will never truly have a voice in the industry as long as the wwe is the only game in town. The only thing we’ll ever have is blogs like this and sites like 411mania and insidepulse to voice our opinions and our disapproval. So while I thank Scott Keith for providing us with this outlet, and for this long winded angry drunken diatribe, I also know that in the grand scheme of things, this doesn’t matter, and that to those who should be hearing our dissent, that should be hearing our outrage, our demands for stricter policies so that our favorite stars don’t continue down this road of self destruction,that those words, dreams, hopes, and prayers fall on deaf ears.
All I ask is that the IWC as a whole cut the bullshit and accept what is really going on. Stop feeding into the media frenzy, and stop throwing out false allegations. Feel free to call me on my own bullshit here, the AIM is OutofStep81 and the email is erik_sampson@hotmail.com I’ve been around as long as scott keith, and I know nearly as much, but I welcome different points of view and non flaming intelligent discussion.
Also, there were eight guys who wrestled at WrestleMania V and who died under the age of 50, and one of them was Owen Hart, who didn’t exactly keel over with heart troubles. Andre’ death wasn’t wrestling-related either.
This Benoit tragedy certainly opened the mainstream media’s eyes. Wait until the next wrestler drops dead, probably sooner than later.