Continuing on…
I was gonna blog about Big Love, but really it’s the other topic that’s bringing all the traffic, so we’ll continue down that road for a while.
This has gone beyond the point where I can even wrap my head around the situation any longer. It’s like there’s this guy who was basically a hero to me, who everyone I’ve talked to that knew him always said what a great guy he was, who never let me down as a performer…then suddenly he’s dead. And so’s his family. And it’s like “Oh, shit, that’s awful, I feel so sorry for him.” And then you find out that he killed his family and then himself. And then you find out that he not only killed them, he killed them in what can only be called a gruesome and ritualistic manner. And ironically, when the WWE is getting more mainstream press off him than at any time before, they suddenly erase him from history, too and distance themselves as fast as possible so that we all know that they’re the victim here. And all the shows scheduled for the prairies in July are cancelled. Of course, the Saskatoon house show had only done about 1000 tickets if that to date, so I was expecting that one anyway. But it’s like every time I log on, there’s something else getting piled onto the story to really twist the knife in. It’s just weird, man. Lemme tell ya, I’ve been wearing my Backlash 2004 t-shirt on a fairly regular basis as of late, but I’m not risking wearing it again.
I think that more interesting than the story itself is the range of reactions, not just on this blog but everywhere. I don’t think anyone’s defending him or even attempting to, but it’s interesting to me that reactions are ranging so wildly between shock and disbelief (which is mostly where I fall at the moment) all the way to outright hatred and comparisons to Hitler. In all fairness, Hitler killed a LOT more people before doing himself in, so Benoit had a long way to go.
It does raise an interesting question — do the deeds of the performer retroactively affect the quality of the performance? Someone noted in another thread that defending Benoit’s in-ring work is like trying to seperate Hitler the dictator from Hitler the painter. I don’t think that’s such a crazy notion, frankly. If you have moral high ground enough to judge the entire body of work of a man because of his deeds in real life, then bully for you. It must be nice to be so righteous. I think it’s sad, and it’s a tragedy, and Benoit proved to be a horrible human being who got exactly what he deserved, but in the end unless you were related to Nancy and Daniel it’s hard to justify acting like you knew them any better than Benoit’s longtime fans knew him. In the end, there’ll be a TV movie or an episode of Law & Order, and we’ll all go on with our lives doing the best we can to cope or mourn or forget about it or whatever. I’m glad I didn’t know Benoit the person, because it would have made it a lot tougher to like Benoit the performer, and if nothing else positive can come out of this whole sick situation it’s that I can at least still get enjoyment from his matches and hope that one small bit of happiness can overcome the crushing horror that the past two days have brought. I’ll take what I can get, I guess.
First. haha. At this point, until we know more, i think it’s harsh to call him a terrible human being. I may be proved wrong. We could find out that he treated his son horribly, and the spousal abuse thing was legit, but until then, I look at him more as a tragic figure. Up to now, no one at anytime has ever had anything bad to say about him. Not in any shoots, dirt sheets, nothing. Now he does something that’s undoubtably horrible. Most likely there was something up. Does that get him out of what he did, no. But it gives a reason. It gives a reason, and it helps to clear the name of Benoit, who could’ve been a victim of something entirely out of his hands. As for the other thing about judging what he did for who he was. As I said earlier, I’ve studied many playwrights and artists who have done terrible things, but there work is still amazing. After a while, that’s what people will remember. Maybe it will be 20 maybe more years from now, that’s what people will remember most. There’s a difference between Hitler and Benoit (well a lot of differences, actually) Hitler was a failed painter, most people don’t even know he WAS a painter. He was a dictator first and foremost. Benoit was a wrestler. That’s what he did, and he was one of, if not the, best ever. One thing I wanna bring up to those talking about his past violent behavior. Remember on the Benoit (maybe ECW too) DVD, when he crippled Sabu. Benoit said, and I believe others attested to, that he was pretty shaken up about it, checking in on him all the time.
no, Poopy Sean, he is a terrible human being. he killed his 7 year old son. what type of man kills his son? this news site (http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/fayette/stories/2007/06/27/0627metbenoitchoke.html) alleges Benoit choked his son to death. just picture your father coming into your room and doing that to you. what’s are the final thoughts going through your head as you slowly lose consciousness? “Why does dad hate me?” “Is this even really happening?” and then….dead. I’ve heard of all types of murders in the news over the years but this sickens me worse than any I’ve ever heard of.
And people who say it might be roid rage are clueless. Roid Rage is when you flip out and punch your wife in an uncontrollable fit. Benoit murdered his wife (maybe in a roid rage fit) but that doesn’t last into the next day when he killed his son. the bible stuff and the time between the murders and his suicide suggest that he was regretful. I just wish he killed himself after the wife so the kid didn’t have to endure that. maybe Benoit was thinking “We’ll all go together” or something insane like that. but Daniel could have lived. so sad. I’m almost forget to be sympathetic to the wife because crazy husband/wife shit happens all the time. but I just can’t believe he did that to his son.
lastly, for all of you who thought that Benoit’s work in the ring was among the best of all time, you’re crazy and you just worship that smart mark stuff. he was one of the most boring wrestlers ever. I don’t care how well he executed his moves. he had no heat at all..ever. and his reign as world champion (though the two matches with HBK and HHH were great) was such a joke because he had nothing going for him except his “workmanlike attitude.” and who cared about that? FAR inferior to Steve Austin, The Rock, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Kurt Angle, Mick Foley, HHH (say what you want about him, but Hemsley’s run in 2000 puts Benoit’s entire career to shame), Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, the list goes on. Benoit never should have advanced past hour 2 of WCW Nitro.
and that’s the last I speak of his wrestling career.
Saying Chris Benoit was a boring and inferior wrestler is just willful stupidity because you’re mad.
Benoit….good wrestler, bad father.
Apparently Daniel had a rare medical condition called Fragile X syndrome, which caused his growth impairment. Perhaps JR saying “Daniel will never be able to follow in his father’s footsteps” was unnecessary, as Daniel’s disability already prevented him from leading a normal life.
If it’s true that he/they had Daniel on HGH because he was “too small” that is some extremely dark irony.
The hatred and the comparisons to Hitler stuff is what I don’t get. Chris is dead, what further retribution are people seeking against him? He hanged himself using the pulley and cord of an exercise machine, how much more brutal would you have made it? Clearly he at least felt terrible remorse if he ended his own life instead of simply turning himself in.
More than answers this is a time when people should be thinking about, if not forgiveness than at least healing. Benoit has two older children, siblings, parents, and friends left behind who are all going through a very difficult ordeal right now. If you feel very badly about this situation than keep them in your thoughts. If you can’t manage to do that than maybe it is just about feeling righteous and superior.
Thanks for putting it better than I could Scott. I know how much he meant as a performer to you from your books and rants and that encapsulates what a lot of the rest of us felt.
Call me crazy but I’m still not 100% convinced that Benoit is guilty yet. Maybe I’ve seen one too many Law and Orders but there’s something damn odd about this whole situation given the time period and the methods in which the murders occurred. Until more time and labwork is given to the investigation and we’re not relying on snippets of info from a million websites that may or may not be true, I’m going to reserve judgment.
You’re fucking crazy.
Yeah, I second that emotion. Law and Order is a tv show, this is reality, a sad, sad reality
L&O MAY be a TV show, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did this as an episode of CI, as they did a take off on The Anna Nicole death recently
Well, I don’t know if it retroactively erases his past, but some people might not care to watch it again. I’m guessing that’s where I will fall. I mean, I like the Naked Gun but having O.J. Simpson in it kind of sours it for me.
Comparing Benoit to Hitler is unfair. I mean, for one thing, Hitler had charisma.
Perhaps too soon. But still, that was awesome.
I think there’s a reason that the NFL network doesn’t show OJ highlights, you know?
I mean, can I ever watch another wrestling DVD or tape again? You watch WrestleMania, you get to play count the dead guys, and that’s bad enough. Now you watch any old tape over the last seven or so years, you see a Benoit match and you’re reminded of this.
I stayed up all night reading about Benoit, so I was pretty tired on Tuesday. I was only able to watch two Benoit matches before falling asleep. Thankfully, I can still turn on Benoit matches and have one hell of a time watching them.
I guess that’s just how I am. To this day I still make arguments that OJ Simpson was one of the greatest running backs ever (4.7 AVG and 2000 yards in a 14 game season) despite the fact that he was accused of a double murder. I can’t condone Benoit’s actions, but I can still enjoy his matches.
I call OJ Simpson one of the greatest ever. I watch baseball and don’t think about steroids. I watch athletes without thinking about what they’ve done when their uniform is off. Like I said, that’s just how I am, I guess I’m able to seperate entertainment from reality.
Also, I have a feeling that alot of internet wrestling fans are traumatized right now. I think it’s ridiculous. This is not a valid reason to stop watching wrestling, atleast in my opinion. Like I said before, you’re supposed to fight through hard times like this, and that’s my plan. As far as “fixing” the industry? Please, this incident wasn’t even related to wrestling, besides the fact that Benoit was a wrestler and Nancy was a valet.
Benoit was one of those truly great wrestlers, his matches reminded me of why I love wrestling. That feeling still remains to this day when I watch him. I’m not gonna throw that away. I’m disgusting with Benoit’s actions, with good reason. But as a wrestler, he was one of the greatest of all time, and I don’t regret saying it.
I cannot believe any of you are truly surpised that a man who was so great at pretending to be a violent man turns out to be really good at BEING a violent man. Anyone that can still enjoy the guy’s wrestling matches is perhaps a bit dissociative.
Binding his wife’s hands and feet, smothering his son with a garbage bag and a choke hold shows a methodical nature that I know many of us admired in his work. To still be able to enjoy that is honestly beyond me.
To quote Ed Harris in David Cronenberg’s excellent film “A History of Violence” :
“Ask him, Edie, how come he’s so good at killing people?”
One thing I’ve found odd when sizing up the entire story with all the evidence is that he took out his wife and kid in such a brutal fashion…yet he made sure the dogs were fed before taking his life. I don’t know about the rest of you…but the speculative side of me thinks that this little action, not noticed by most sites, could speak volumes of his mental state at the time after the murders.
So it was a last action of kindness (knowing it could be a day before someone arrived) or a sign that he valued the lives of his dogs more than those of his family toward the end. I just ponder…did he take his own life out of despair, or out of fear of witnessing the reactions of those who looked up to him so much, like Scott.
I appreciate all he did for wrestling…but not Benoit match will ever be the same for me. Wrestlemania XX was my favorite moment in wrestling…I jumped for joy when HHH tapped out…and now it’s just a sad reminder that none of us knew the man behind the mask as well as we all thought.
I had been thinking that it was because his dogs were guard/attack dogs, and they get especially vicious if they haven’t eaten for some time. The animals would be a threat and very likely destroyed in such an event.
I believe the text said (according to WWE.com) “the dogs are in an enclosed area” or something like that, not that they had been fed. Odd though, since they were enough of a threat to delay police.
Of course, i know there is no comparison between Hitler and Benoit. Just the first person to commit a bad act that came to mind.
My point was that i cannot understand the people who say that they feel sad for Benoit after all of this. Would you feel any different if he didn’t kill himself and was arrested?
For more than a few people, it seems that they are upset about how his horrible deeds are going to affect their appreciation for his work. It seems to me that alot of people (on this site and others) almost feel pissed at him for ruining what they remember in the ring.
Now i never liked Benoit, but he was a good wrestler. To me, any good act he committed beforehand (i.e. 5 star matches and don’t get me wrong i thought the WMXX main event was great) all goes right out the window. Thats where the Hitler the painter Hitler the dictator comparison comes from.
I guess to sum it up, I dont see how anything as wholly insignicant as pro wrestling can save this guy’s memory in anyone’d mind.
I don’t think continuing to enjoy his matches has anything to do with forgiving him as a human being or “making up for” what he did. When I watch a Benoit (or anyone else) match, it’s not to celebrate what kind of human being he is, it’s to enjoy the wrestling, which is essentially a work of fiction or art. To say that the final few horrific days of his life just erases all the greatness of those wrestling matches is a slight to wrestling itself, because those matches aren’t about how great a guy Chris Benoit was, they’re about how great professional wrestling can be.
I am not upset that “his horrible deeds are going to affect their appreciation for his work.”
I don’t think I’ll be able to look at him and NOT think of his horrible deeds.
I don’t think I’ll be able to watch a tape or DVD and NOT think of him and his horrible deed, whether Benoit is on it or not.
I’ve just been thinking… what kind of person gravitates to wrestling, anyway? Are they just inherently violent? That’s what I’m starting to think.
And why should I be a fan of a business where it’s just an inherent assumption that every few years, there’s going to be a dead performer…. Pillman, Owen, Hennig, Smith, Guerrero, now Benoit.
“And ironically, when the WWE is getting more mainstream press off him than at any time before, they suddenly erase him from history, too and distance themselves as fast as possible so that we all know that they’re the victim here. ”
Are you saying they should have left all of the merchandise off and tried to profit off of this tragedy? They’ve made the absolute correct decision for themselves and the public by trying to remove most references to him. No one wants to see a murderer every time they browse or shop at wwe.com, and the company needs to prevent any charges of trying to profit off the tragedy. Chris Benoit destroyed his family and legacy, caused hardship to his job and devastated millions of people around the world with the most selfish fucking act a person can do. WWE isn’t in the wrong here. He was, and he will go down remembered not as one of the greatest pro wrestlers ever, but as a man who murdered his wife and his 7-year old, as he should.
I think the irony is that the WWE doesn’t push a guy like Benoit to the top because he’d never bring them mainstream press.
I don’t think that Scott’s suggesting the WWE profit off this tragedy, and I think you’re a jerk for suggesting as much.
I want to express my condolences again to you Mr. Keith, knowing how much Benoit was a big influence on your writing.
What I found most fascinating was that when the very first report was realeased on Monday right before Raw, that Benoit and his family were found dead in their home, with no other details, we were all in shock very much the same way we felt when Owen and Eddie died. We all immediately though of Benoit as the character he played on tv, because he really seemed to have lived that life in reality. The storylines were tailored to Benoit’s backgroung (underappreciated underdog gets to play and outwit the bigger adversaries using his wits and skills). And as Keith mentioned on the Hard Knocks dvd, Benoit did appear to be a great family man. His marriage to Nancy did start off in a dubious manner (and Lord knows how much we now wished Nancy stayed with Kevin Sullivan), but the way he stated that he wouldn’t tell Daniel how he met his mother until he was mature enough and ready to deliver the news indicated that he was a good, if flawed, person.
And that was the mood felt on last night’s Raw. It started off with the WWE superstars with their recorded testimonies, very similar to Owen’s and Eddie’s tribute with everyone paying their respects, lauding his work and how great a family man he was. It started with a music video set to Benoit’s life, much like Owen’s and Eddie’s tribute. And it had clips of his great matches (and indeed, the greatest matches in wrestling history), much like Owen’s and Eddie’s tribute. I was in mourning, but the kind of mourning that had me in sadness, yet with optimism and pride that a great wrestler like Benoit managed to overcome everything and become the great wrestler that he was and completing his dream to wrestle like the greats (Dynamite Kid, Bret) he admired.
And then…the details came. We learned that there were TWO shocking twists in the story. The first one was the announcement of the deaths; the second was that Benoit may have lived a double life that can only be described as a real life version of “A History of Violence”.
Somewhere in the middle of the Raw tribute, details begin to emerge on the internet indicating foul play was involved (I was hoping all night it was some sort of freak accident). Right after reading this, William Regal shows up on the screen, and gives an abstract and rushed tribute to Benoit, obviously only praising his work in the ring and not as a family man. Everything just snowballed to where we are now with all the buzzwords currenty dotting each article-”instrument of death”, “bounding”, “hormone growth shot”. Comments from every blog turned from expressions of grief for a wrestler they loved to downright rage with every nasty thing that can be said about Benoit.
This was clearly a new type of passing that was different from past deaths; this wasn’t like Eddie’s “clean” death, and I’m sorry to use that word and mean no disrespect to Eddie’s family. I use the word because Eddie manage to accomplish his dreams in the business, and while his life was tragically cut short, the circumstances surrounding it weren’t gristly (passed away because of past substance abuse), and the fact that he conquered his demons signified that he had achieved a great purpose in his life. That was why the WWE exploited Eddie’s death with the bad storylines, because the blame on Eddie’s death couldn’t easily been pinned down to anyone. It convieniently bottled Eddie’s image as a great wrestler and great guy for eternity, and nothing (even the most revolting wrestling angles) could change that. Likewise, Owen’s death was more tragic and much more dark(all the results of a easily preventable accident), but again, when he died, his image as a great wrestler and family man was bottled forever.
That what was happening to Benoit on Monday Night. Now, of course, the darkest story in wrestling history is still being collected, and the WWE is whiting out Benoit’s existance from their history, starting with tonight’s ECW broadcast. A man who’s life was so tormented, depressing and nihlistic that even a sensationalist company that thrives on every imaginable publicity backs away from it.
Can I seperate Benoit the wrestler from Benoit the man? Eventually in time, I can watch Benoit matches; maybe not like I used to but with the acceptance that his sacrifice, hard work and ovious love of wrestling needs to be appreciated. One thing’s for sure, if everything is written really is true, then I don’t want to spend the rest of my life trying to defend him. I don’t want to be like those Michael Jackson fan freaks you see on youtube who constantly defend Jackson despite solid evidence that he’s a paedo and endlessly sing his praises as if people gave a damn about them. I don’t want to be like those O.J. fans who claim he was framed by racist cops. I won’t dedicate my life to perpetuating a freakshow circus that will undeniabley be tacked to Benoit’s legacy. I’ll just accept Benoit for who he was and what he did in the ring, and that’s that.
Sorry for my rambling post, I just felt like getting something off my chest at the moment. The movie this tragedy reminds me of is Gus Van Sant’s “Elephant”, how the horror that was unfolding inside the school as the shootings occured revealed the numbness and gloom of murder. I’m really sorry for everyone involved in the tragedy and am praying for Chris, Nancy, and Daniel and their loved ones.
Also, this footage of Benoit really is depressing in retrospect…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjkRFF6zabI&feature=PlayList&p=C4184A9AD27805D7&index=60
That’s crazy footage, and it’s hard to believe that the guy in that footage could do what he did. Insane.
First off: Charlie, your charisma comment was wrong yet funny. Kudos!
I understand that it will be impossible to think of Benoit in the same way again. However, some of us are acting like they pulled a rubber mask off of his body to discover that he was Satan himself. All one has to do is look at the facts that have been released to realize that Benoit was extremely mentally ill. The fact that he was so introverted (which was mentioned on Raw by Malenko) probably hid the symptoms that would have tipped people off that he needed help. I’m not trying to start a “poor Benoit” movement, but I don’t think we have to compare him to Hitler either.
Personally, I’ll still be able to enjoy Benoit’s matches. As a fan of Norwegian black metal, I’ve become accustomed to seperating the person from their art.
I hear ya. I’d hate not being able to listen to a Burzum album again for the rest of my life.
Last night I was watching an old episode of Monday Nitro on WWE 24/7, and there was a Benoit match on there. I have to say that I had the same reaction to it as I almost always do when watching a Benoit match: “this is awesome.” I didn’t feel weird or uncomfortable at all seeing him wrestle. I guess that makes me an evil, unfeeling bastard, but that’s the truth.
Hey Scott, great words. But to be fair to history, Hitler was a mediocre painter. His talent was oration.
I feel deeply and irreversibly betrayed by Chris Benoit and WWE. I don’t give a shit if anyone says that “you’ll be back.” That’s what a lot of young, inexperienced, ignorant, snarky internet geeks do and I expect it. Chris destroyed everything positive I ever used to think about him. There’s only one other person I can think of who could have shattered my fragile love of pro-wrestling more than Benoit, and that’s Bret Hart. I’m looking at a decade before big-league wrestling’s enjoyable again, until a turnover in the management of WWE and it’s roster. I’ll still go to indy shows since there’s no chance those guys are on steroids and I know many are college students and working types who balance their lives in a healthy way - wrestling to them is (shock of shocks) just a fun way to earn a buck getting jeered and cheered by their friends.
WWE could easily implement (real) strict testing tomorrow. They obviously discriminate based on who’s getting pushed - no intelligent person can look at Bobby Lashley and say that WWE has strict and fair testing.
Think of your mind like a dam: the concrete is your sanity, and the water is stress and emotion. In a flood you let out a little at a time to keep the dam from bursting. I despise Shawn Michaels for many things, but we’ll never see anything like this from him. This may shock some people, but it’s because he throws temper tantrums, refuses to job, and allows himself to be himself, regardless of what anyone thinks. Benoit was an uptight prick who was too proud to deal with life, and living in the wrestling bubble (for our entertainment) definitely contributed to it. He was too afraid or too proud to do things like take time off (how many times did he come back from an injury looking even more uptight than when he left?), admit to a nervous breakdown and possibly spend time in a mental institution, and doing things that others may ridicule, but which is the emotional equivalent of letting enough water through the dam to keep our sanity from crumbling.
I don’t think any truly non-psychopathic, fully-functional adult human can think his entertainment is worth what we’re seeing from the news reports about Benoit. But most fans I’m thinking about don’t have the emotional or moral depth to begin the conversation in the first place.
WWE is going to do their Orwellian best to skew the news to their advantage, and they’re doing it because they don’t want to leave the “wrestling only” bubble they’re so comfortable in, and also because they don’t want to lose a lot of money. Hopefully, Vince and co. will get a serious dose of the real world soon, and it might be one that dwarfs the Vince steroid trial.
I don’t think you can accurately determine that it was life in wrestling that set this off, it would seem that seem that Benoit and his wife were on thin ice since the child was born. The guy was spending one of the uncommon visits home that his and all other wrestler’s schedules allow and was supposed to return to work for a house show. He was ending a period in a family/home setting when he set to work on this.
It’s not at all impossible that the work environment broke the metaphorical dam, but it seems to me the odds are that things just weren’t going well at home. This happens to a lot of couples in the business when children get involved. A lot of people thought Angle was going through a life crisis last year when it seemed that his wife was taking the baby daughter away because Kurt couldn’t stop working himself into the wheelchair. It’s unfortunate that Benoit was unable to come to a happy conclusion.
Christ, we all talked about how awful this kind of stuff is with Austin/Debra a few years ago, but SCSA didn’t go so far as to end any lives.
Someone noted in another thread that defending Benoit’s in-ring work is like trying to seperate Hitler the dictator from Hitler the painter. I don’t think that’s such a crazy notion, frankly. If you have moral high ground enough to judge the entire body of work of a man because of his deeds in real life, then bully for you. It must be nice to be so righteous. I think it’s sad, and it’s a tragedy, and Benoit proved to be a horrible human being who got exactly what he deserved, but in the end unless you were related to Nancy and Daniel it’s hard to justify acting like you knew them any better than Benoit’s longtime fans knew him.
Professional wrestling involves matches where you cheer one guy against another. Even in matches where he was the heel, I’d root for Benoit because to me he defined everything that was tough, hard-working, talented and awesome. Any time somebody would say, “How can you watch pro wrestling, it’s fake, crude and stupid?” I’d say that Benoit alone elevated into legitimate athletic competition and even art.
It’s impossible for me to root for him any more. I can’t bear to watch his matches knowing how he went out. Yeah, other wrestlers may be asses and jerks in real life and even hit women but that is so far below what Benoit did, there’s just no comparison.
The body of work remains among the abosolute best pro wrestling has ever seen. But it’s irrevocably ruined for me now.
Drugs affect a lot of people in a lot of different ways. Going from city to city, hotel to hotel, things can get skewed. Add drugs to the mix and things can get uncontrollable. Not making excuses, but judging other people is all too easy a way out. Im not Christian either, but if I remember the general theme, it was that the smallest sin was equal to the largest. Hopefully, Chris and his family can find some peace. RIP Chris. RIP Daniel. RIP Nancy. RIP.
As for whether I can still appreciate Benoit matches…
I’m sure I’d still be able to appreciate his ability…to size them up purely on a technical level as good matches.
But a large part of liking Benoit was getting into his tough guy persona, his inspirational story. The 3-way at Wrestlemania 20 was certainly a well worked match, but it’s greatness was 50% workrate and 50% being inspired by Benoit’s story and excited by his unique persona.
There’s certainly nothing inspirational about his story anymore, and I can’t enjoy his onscreen persona anymore either. Benoit was the badass who looked like a killer but, supposedly, had a heart of gold. Turns out he really *was* the killer.
So ultimately while I think Benoit matches could still certainly be watchable and even “good”, I can’t really see myself getting invested in them anymore or at least enjoying them half as much as I used to. A big part of what made them so great is going to be lost.
This is why Benoit marks are in denial. Wrestling as an art form if different than painting or music. It is supposed to be about FICTIONAL violent people. For normal people, the idea of a real violent person, a person who uses wrestling moves to kill a small boy, is just too much reality and destroys any of the fantasy of a worked match.
Benoit was a horrible wrestler, as he probably damaged wrestling beyond repair.
I think it is going to be shown to be a result of severe depression brought on by steroid use. I think it’s kind of ridiculous that the WWE put out a statement saying it “could not” be the result of steroids. This is why steroids are so loathed.
Im in the UK but we get Fox News and its shocking that they are sensationalising the ‘roid rage’ aspect of this case. Im not particularly knowledgable on the US media, although i’ve seen enough Bill Hicks dvds to have a decent idea. But this is pretty dispicable. Unusually, I find myself agreeing with the WWE statement released earlier today. Its not wrong to speculate, but surely it’s wrong to present this as ‘roid rage’ with no concrete evidence. People beleive what they see and read and Fox are presenting conjecture and heresay as fact. Yes, there is a good chance that steroids played a part. Certainly it’s beyond dispute that Benoit was a user, and it’s laughable for WWE to claim that he tested ‘neative’ in April. But I doubt we will ever know the true reasons for what went on last weekend.
I find it hard to reconcile Benoit the hero with Benoit the child killer, as a lot of you do. However, I also find it terribly terribly sad that somebody who was a bona fide legend, a definite hall of famer, and somebody who would have been remembered fondly by thousands of people, will now be remembered in this way. Its like all he accomplished means nothing, which surely cannot be true. Like Scott says, his matches will always be there and will always be at the very least, very very good, but I doubt Scott or anyone else will be able to watch them without thinking of what has happened.
Sad sad sad.
The outpouring of emotion when talking about Chris Benoit’s “craft” right now is disgusting and sickening. Yes, I realize that many of you supported him as a wrestler, but please. The man wrapped a garbage bag around his 7 year old son’s head and choked him to death with his bare hands. How can you pop in your “Hard Knocks” DVD and watch Benoit stalk HHH in the ring and slap on the Crossface?
He’s a gutless coward who killed a woman and an innocent child. No amount of 5-star matches will ever change that. Anyone who speaks positively of Benoit in any way right now has issues themselves. He ruthlessly slaughtered his innocent son. With his bare hands. At some point, his son was gasping for air, fighting to live. Maybe Benoit just locked in his grip a little better until the son “tapped out”. It’s sick, he’s sick and if you say anything positive about him, you are sick too.
Thanks for the propaganda, but guess what your opinion is not gospel and this sort of case provokes diverse reaction. People have already put forward valid arguments for being able to continually appreciate Benoit’s in-ring work without you posting a barely legitmate rant to try and reverse those arguments.
I think the legitimate rant is legitimate. It’s not like OJ Simpson playing Nordberg in Naked Gun. What was Chris Benoit’s character and how did that differ from him as a person? It didn’t. Undersized scrappy technical wrestler who got by on his in-ring ability, right? That’s him the man, isn’t it?
The Hitler comments are ludicrous, as, IMO, is people’s amnesia regarding the kind of person Benoit has shown himself to be during his 20 years in the public eye. If you’re an asshole, it shows, period. How many wrestlers have the good-guy history and open respect from his peers that Benoit has had? Bobby Eaton comes to mind, but I can’t think of another one. Forget separating the in-ring performance from the man, why separate the man’s entire history from the way the man’s life ended?
He had mistakes, yes. A drunk-driving conviction, whoopee. One domestic-violence incident, years ago. More serious, but it was only one (which is a few less than our hero Stone Cold has had IIRC).
This looks to me like some kind of emotional explosion, a mental thing. He wasn’t a lifelong dickwad who finally went too far and then killed himself to avoid responsibility. He was by all accounts a lifelong good guy and hard worker whose brain seems to have gone off the rails, who killed the two people he cared about most, and then killed himself either out of remorse or because he was the only one left for the insanity to do anything to.
In short, if he was evil, he would have always been evil. He wasn’t, so he isn’t. Let’s first understand what happened before pointing and shrieking and bringing out the tar and feathers, shall we?
Just wondering..how many times is acceptable to hit a woman? Sounds like you say at least 1 is cool. I just want to know, so I can explain to my daughters that each of them is allowed to be slapped around x amount of times in their lives.
From the look of your “gutless coward” post above, you don’t seem too open to shades of gray, but just in case:
* Lack of control does not imply lack of responsibility. When he was driving drunk, he may not have had complete control over his actions, but he was still responsible for getting drunk and anything that may have happened as a result. Should this turn out to be roid rage or otherwise chemically induced, he may not have been in control of his actions at the time, but he is responsible for taking whatever he took.
* Understanding does not imply excusing. Understanding means knowing why, excusing means saying it’s okay. If this was done because he’d met another woman and wanted to start anew, that’s evil. If he was tired of living in a high-maintenance marriage and with a handicapped son and killed them because he wanted out, that’s evil. Both of these would qualify him as a “gutless coward.” If he was not in control–whether because of chemicals, concussions, a brain tumor, or whatever–that’s different. If he killed himself to escape responsibility, then he is a “gutless coward.” If he killed himself because he’d come back to earth and he thought it was the only suitable punishment, then is he? If he was still out of his mind and killed himself as a sunstricken snake biting itself, then what?
In other words, numerous possibilities, numerous possible judgments. Some of us are willing to wait and make informed decisions.
If you choose blind anger and attacks on anyone who doesn’t think like you, that’s your choice. Neither can you be prevented from utterly ignoring context and meaning as you did with your “how many times is acceptable to hit a woman” reply above. However, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t put such repulsive words in my mouth.
Your exact words are “One domestic-violence incident, years ago. More serious, but it was only one (which is a few less than our hero Stone Cold has had IIRC).”
How can that not be interpreted as condoning it if it happened once?
I thought the domestic complaint said he was making threats and breaking furniture, not that he ever actually hit Nancy. Hell, my old man made threats and broke furniture a couple of times a month, but he never hit my mom.
If you’ve seen any reports claiming that Benoit actually beat his wife, you should post the link. It would probably change some people’s minds about him if that were the case.
Yeah, I could probably just post the link where he bound her feet and choked her to death with an electrical cord. That could probably change some people’s minds about him too.
Hey, if you want to make the argument that Chris Benoit was an evil monster all along, one who beat his wife and drove drunk, yet somehow convinced people who worked with him for 15 years that he was a good guy, go ahead. If you want to believe there is no such thing as undiagnosed mental illness or temporary insanity, help yourself. I was just pointing out that the domestic complaint didn’t say anything about Benoit hitting Nancy, so that’s a pretty weak piece of evidence to prove that he had a history of spousal abuse.
Of all the things written about Benoit. Which includes mainstream press to wrestling sites to your average fan, your comment is the most intelligent and well written thing I have read about the whole thing.
Wow. I couldn’t have put it any better. That’s how I feel as well. It seems like it was a mental problem, which couldn’t be avoided.
I can’t feel hate for Benoit, as I feel what he did appeared to be out of his hands. Things like that aren’t carried out by people who have never potentially shown that they would do something like that. It’s just weird to me, so I feel that it couldn’t have been a fully conscious decision on Benoit’s part.
I’m not sympathising with him, I just feel that it can’t be as straightforward as the people calling him a scumbag murderer or whatever are saying.
well said
Yeah… let’s not compare Austin to Benoit, asshole. Austin never killed a woman and young child, thank you.
Chris Nowinski is pushing for the coroner to check for signs of untreated, repeated concussions - which can cause chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a condition that can cause memory loss, depression and “bizarre, paranoid behavior.
Benoit would take unprotected chair shots to the skull - was stiffed in Japan, WCW, ECW and the WWE (how many times did Angle alone drop Benoit right on his skull) - used to take his suicide dive bumps by crashing into the guardrail skull first…
My guess is, you take a look at Benoit’s brain - the damage Nowinski is looking for will be there.
Does it make what Benoit did any more acceptable - not in the slightest. Does it start to provide some explanation - quite possibly.
All this excitement reminds me when I met Chris Benoit myself. I was in the hotel airport, on the way back from Backlash when I saw Chris in the lobby. I was a HUGE fan of his so I waddled down there and picked up a conversation. I have to admit I was a bit tipsy so I was almost drooling at the time, and that is probably where it all became a bit surreal.
I’ll be the first one to admit I am not at all into other men. Still I was a huge man of his and a certain impulse had me longing to see the little crippler. As we were both a bit intoxicated, and as he was quite the charmer, I finally managed to do so. It was then that I realized it wasn’t just his will that was as hard as steel. I grappled with Benoit’s third leg, and engaged him in a double-jaw crotch-lock. His “little Crippler” was so large I nearly crippled my mouth putting it in.
After I brought him to a Wrestlemania 20-worthy climax, he turned to leave. I wept bitter tears because I knew I would be receiving nothing - but little did I know that the Crisp one had a little something in store for me. I only suspected something strange when he walked back in with a pully in one hand, a steel cord in the other, and a big smile on his face.
As he hoisted me to what I was afraid would be my demise, he took my swine-coloured hand and inserted it into my anus. As I enjoyed the illicit petals of the anal pleasure flower, he tightened his grip about my throat. I knew that it was only a matter of time… before I had the biggest ejaculation of my life.
As my semen stained the floor, he dropped me from the noose. When I regained consciousness, I rose my head to thank Chris Benoit. However, the proud warrior had long since left. I would never saw him again.
Find something better to do with your time.
Stop giving him attention.
I met Chris Benoit at a friend’s party in Atlanta 4 years ago. he was unbelievably nice……they even had a giant trampoline and he gave me a triple german-suplex on the trampoline to show me what it really is like in the ring. One of the nicest famous people I have ever met. I don’t believe he committed this crime. I just won’t believe it…I don’t care what the ‘facts’ say. He didn’t do this.
I’m glad you brought up the separating the art from the man perspective, Scott. And honestly, anyone condemning Benoit to Hell as evil or whatever is like you said, too self-righteous and getting off on making grand statements like that. Sadly our sefl-centered culture loves to judge, when we ALL know we are each capable of doing things we never would think we would. That’s why words like “regret” and “guilt” exist, to describe this phenomenon of human behavior. Am I excusing murder, and child-killing? Fuck no, but I am separating justice from punishment, and trying to understand that if a crazy person does something horrible but honestly believes it’s the right thing to do, how can you condemn him? Benoit was obviously sick, his mind just stopped working right…I mean look at the details like putting Bibles by their bodies. You can see a twisted logic at work there in that it sort of makes sense but it’s a useless gesture…a broken mind trying to work.
I can honestly say without fear of being proved wrong that Chris was not an evil psychopath all his life. So, unless some even more hideous details arise, I think I can separate his work that I loved so much from the man that he became. I love his title victory at WMXX, from an emotional standpoint as well as technical love for the wrestling itself, and until proven different won’t consider that the monster he became was the man in that match. There’s as much evidence that states he was a good man once, as early as this year (a good man with a horrible temper maybe, but not some evil, souless harbinger of pain) as there is to show that he in fact did kill his family.
It takes alot to understand the nature of “good and evil”, and God knows I’m not saying I do. But honestly, if Hitler thought what he was doing was right, honestly and in his heart, how can you condemn that? Justice should be served, most def., and if Benoit were alive I’d say lock him up for the rest of his life (I’m not anti-capital punishment, but you gotta remember he has 2 other kids still alive, and being able to deal with this from their father directly would affect them less groing up than watching him die. And of course if he was mentally ill that’s even more a reason. But he would never see the sun again). It’s not called making excuses, or advocating detrimental behavior, it’s called understanding, dealing, and making sure that the future (i.e. childen and society) is not negatively affected.
Ultimately, it’s what you chose to believe, and I don’t believe that the matches I loved him in in the past are a reflection of an evil twisted monster. But he did die a monster, and although I’m not particularly religious, I believe he’s paying for what he did on the other side, and that the worst feelings of mankind, sadness & regret, are going to be his Hell for a long time, even in death as they would have been in life. But nothing is so black and white, and that’s part of the human condition: reconciling with that fact.
And God bless his remaining children, may they grow up healthy despite this tragedy.
I think it is safe to say we can condemn what Hitler did.
C’mon, do you honestly think that condemning somebody to hell for tying up his wife and strangling her with an alarm clock wire, then hours later suffocating his own seven year old son in his bed room — all while sending text messages and making phone calls to co-workers, lying about his wife and kids being “ill” — and then hanging himself in his weight room is “self righteous”?????
I’ll condemn him to hell for WHAT he did, but my point was the WHY. His actions deserve justice to be done, oh most def., and I hope he’s suffering for it on the other side. But my point was if he did it b/c he went legitimately crazy or honestly though what he was doing was right or was best then no one can condemn him. And I’m basing that belief on the evidence that supports he used to be a good man and not some supervillian all his life.
No one who didn’t know him or his family personally should condemn anything. That is not ours to do, ours is to care about his remaining childen and recognizing whether or now we can still accept his work, which I know I can and will.
I don’t think anyone can minimize the horror of what Chris has done, but, and not to cheapen the lives of Nancy and Daniel, the real tragedy here as I someone married to a severly bi-polar person see it is that noone saw this coming and was able to get him some kind of help. If nobody was able to see he had some kind of psychological problem or worse yet saw it but kept quiet to prevent a scandel or shame is the truly horrible thing here. Secondly I am not going to play how would win a fight, Superman or Batman. Adolf Hitler was a truly satanic figure. My parents were taken from there homes in Polandas teens and spent the whole war as slave labor in Germany. They only survived because they were Catholics and not Jewish. I get very indignant at people who compare anyone to Hitler. Finally as to Chris’ legacy, it is way too close to this to even be thinking about that. WWE has pulled all mention of him off their site and several major retailers removed his DVD from there stores and sites that’s how painfull this is. Maybe in a year or a few years people will be able to calmly discuss his place.
I’m little surprised that Scott is being as harsh towards Benoit but it is understandable. I for one seem to back and forth on my feelings. I have been from never watch a match of his again and feeling he is a sick bastard to hoping that some sort of insanity can explain it all.
It would not make it all ok but at least it would not be a sane rational man killing his family.
I think I’m going to have to just wait and see what all the evidence points to in the end before finally deciding on how I think of him overall.
I don’t know how to take Benoit after this. Something clearly went very wrong with the man to have done things like this. I do think though that there seems to be a certain attitude amongst Canadian wrestlers trained in the Stu Hart dungeon that doesn’t allow for rest and relaxation and takes wrestling so seriously they can barely think at times. I mean I loved Dynamite Kid in the ring, but everything I have read about him suggests he was a bully who enjoyed hurting people. From Bret to Owen to Davey Boy to Dynamite to Benoit to Bad News so many former Stampede guys ended up in tragedy.
I kind of think Monday Night was Vince’s fabeled optimism coming back to bite him on the ass. He hoped for the best and didn’t get it. As the show opened I joked (and God I feel horrible about this) that maybe Kevin Sullivan snapped or something. My friends suggested carbon monoxide poisoning. Unless WWE does something to make life on the road easier for these wrestlers and starts treaating them FINANCIALLY AND IN TERMS OF EXPENSES OUT OF THEIR POCKET like WCW did in its heyday, things won’t get better.
BINGO. THAT’S the concern now, THAT’S the issue that needs to be addressed like Eddie’s tragic death did to the drug problem in wrestling. It CAN’T go on like this, SOMETHING needs to be done to ensure life is easier for these performers. A massive revolution of the entire wrestling indsustry needs to happen, and hopefully will. And frankly, until it does, I dont think I’m going to be a part of it in any capacity now.
Exactly. Benoit aside, there is *some* reason a large number of wrestlers die so young, and *something* has to change.
Make life easier? Guess what, life isn’t easy for any of us, be it the guy on the road 300 days a year, or the guy who tends bar, or the guy who is a computer programmer. By placing any part of the blame on wrestling, you legtimize and make excuses for why he did this. I have had a couple days to digest this, and all I can say is that if he didn’t want to get help, and he was that mentally ill, then he should have just thrown himself in front of a bus or something.
He killed his wife and child, he then sat down and decided to kill his child several hours later. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WRESTLING other than the fact that Chris Benoit was a wrestler. If he was Chris Benoit bartender, there wouldn’t be an outcry to change bar hours. He was a grown man, he made a choice, a terrible, terrible choice.
If dozens of bartenders were dying before the age of 45 as a direct result of their involvement with bartending, then yes. I would cry out for the changing of bar hours.
In the past 3 years I have known 5 who have died, all for stupid shit like drunk driving and ODing, people blamed the lifestyle, I say that they were adults, and they made their choices. No one made Chris Benoit be a wrestler, he chose that life…
Sigh…again, lets not blame Benoit murdering his wife and son on the WWE road schedule. We are very quick to forget that WWE gave Benoit several months off so he could recover from general wear and tear. He didn’t have any sort of major injury, he just needed time off. And he got it. And when he returned, he won a title in his second match, beating a heavily pushed Superstar, so he clearly wasn’t being punished.
Also, WCW went bankrupt, so I don’t think we should be using their monetary models.